Ontario premier orders review of Lord's Prayer recital.

[Deeps]

Ontario premier orders review of Lord's Prayer recital

Ontario premier orders review of Lord's Prayer recital

Jordana Huber , Canwest News Service

Published: Wednesday, February 13, 2008

TORONTO - The Lord's Prayer, recited by the Speaker at the beginning of each Ontario legislative session, doesn't reflect Ontario's diversity, Premier Dalton McGuinty said Wednesday as he called for a new approach to begin daily proceedings.

McGuinty said it was time to "move beyond" the Lord's Prayer to a more inclusive custom that better reflects Ontario's multiculturalism.

In a letter to opposition leaders, the premier called for an all-party legislative committee that would seek input from citizens and religious groups before making recommendations to the legislature.

Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty says the province has not changed its daily prayer recitation since 1969, while other jurisdictions have moved to adjust their customs to better reflect changing times.

Vancouver Sun file

Email to a friend

Printer friendly

Font:****According to the 2006 census, one-third of Ontario's population was born outside Canada.

In the Toronto region, more than half the population was born in another country.

McGuinty said the province has not changed its daily recitation since 1969, while other jurisdictions have moved to adjust their customs to better reflect changing times.

The premier denied the changes were proposed to smooth tensions left over from election rhetoric that saw faith-based school funding hotly debated.

"No, like the modernization of the house itself, I think it's a reflection of the times," McGuinty said. "We're much more than just Protestants and Catholics today. We have all the world's faiths represented here. If they're represented outside the legislature, I think we ought to find a way to ensure that their diversity is reflected inside the legislature as well."

Earlier this week, the Liberals proposed to start daily proceedings in the upcoming session at 9:30 a.m. instead of the current 1:30 p.m., while eliminating evening sittings to make the legislature more family friendly.

Progressive Conservative Leader John Tory said his party was open to looking at new morning customs but McGuinty's letter implied the Lord's Prayer would be replaced all together.

"That is completely unacceptable to us," Tory said. "Part of respecting the tradition of the legislature is keeping the Lord's Prayer. That doesn't mean we wouldn't be open to other prayers being added."

New Democratic House Leader Peter Kormos said the NDP would also take part in the discussions, but warned the premier might see a movement to remove any reference to religion.

"The premier is trying to show how pluralistic he's prepared to be when it comes to faith communities," Kormos said. "But I think he'd better be careful because there are going to be folks from the humanist perspective who are going to argue well, if you open that box, then let's not have any prayer at all."

A federal all-party committee agreed on the wording for a new non-sectarian prayer for the House of Commons in 1994.

It was first used in 2004 while the Senate formalized rules around prayer in 1991.

Newfoundland and Labrador has no daily prayer while Quebec has a daily moment of reflection.

Alberta uses a selection of non-denominational prayers and on certain occasions uses special prayers.

In British Columbia the practice is to rotate among members who can use a set list of non-denominational prayers.

Saskatchewan has used the same prayer, which was established by an all-party committee in 1931, while Manitoba also has a daily prayer that was established years ago.

The Speaker of the Nova Scotia assembly recites a prayer written in 1972 followed by the Lord's Prayer.

In New Brunswick's legislature the same prayer has been recited since 1801 by a chaplain or the Speaker, followed by the Lord's Prayer.

The Lord's Prayer is also recited in P.E.I's legislature before doors are open to the public. Prayers are also offered for the Queen and members of the legislative assembly.

Here is a link to some Toronto Star reader's views on the topic.

Voices - Toronto Star Reader Thread.

This one made me laugh.

Leave it Alone. You, Mr. McGuinty, are not God.

Peter Ganny, Toronto

I was not aware that god himself had ordained that his prayer be put into legislative proceeding in the first place.

Edited February 14, 2008 by Guest

[hamilton]

The thing about the readers' comments that irritated me the most was the way that most of them seemed to think that this debate is due to "immigrants" who want "us" to change our ways. The reality is that there is a large number of native-born Canadians who would also like to see the pryaer done away with, but these people leaving the comments are too short-sighted (and/or bigoted?) to see that.

[phishtaper]

The thing about the readers' comments that irritated me the most was the way that most of them seemed to think that this debate is due to "immigrants" who want "us" to change our ways. The reality is that there is a large number of native-born Canadians who would also like to see the pryaer done away with, but these people leaving the comments are too short-sighted (and/or bigoted?) to see that.

totally agree. it's much easier to cast blame on them than on us. i sense most people just dont care, although I dont have any evidence to support that.

[Deeps]

The thing about the readers' comments that irritated me the most was the way that most of them seemed to think that this debate is due to "immigrants" who want "us" to change our ways. The reality is that there is a large number of native-born Canadians who would also like to see the pryaer done away with' date=' but these people leaving the comments are too short-sighted (and/or bigoted?) to see that.[/quote']

totally agree. it's much easier to cast blame on them than on us. i sense most people just dont care, although I dont have any evidence to support that.

Definitely one of the first things I noticed too. I too was born and raised in Canada and have nothing to do with Christianity other than hoping that it takes it place in the private endeavours of the those who believe.

[Kanada Kev]

I too was born and raised in Canada and have nothing to do with Christianity other than hoping that it takes it place in the private endeavours of the those who believe.

I couldn't have said it better myself ... that's exactly what I wanted to add as well.

[ollie]

TORONTO - The Lord's Prayer, recited by the Speaker at the beginning of each Ontario legislative session, doesn't reflect Ontario's diversity, Premier Dalton McGuinty said Wednesday as he called for a new approach to begin daily proceedings.

No, but it reflects our heritage. I don't mind a little god talk for the sake of tradition.

[Deeps]

That should be in purple right?

[ollie]

Not at all. I think y'alls fear of Christiantiy is a little weak.

[Deeps]

Though I will be the first to admit that my fear of Christianity is peaking at this point in my life, I don't believe it is this fear that fuels my tendancy to agree that the Lord's Prayer shouldn't be espoused in parliament.

If I were a member of provincial parliament, this "tradition" would make me uncomfortable and would seriously conflict with what my education had taught me about the separation of church and state. It's a duplicitous event and one that starts the new sitting of parliament. Kicking off a political term with confusion and as I said duplicity is little backward don't you think?

[Kanada Kev]

Sing the national anthem, moment of silence, quote a famous Canadian ... there's many other ways to instill a little heritage into the proceedings.

Deeps expressed my feelings again! Traditions can evolve and some start anew. The inclusion of ONE religion's prayer all the time, just because it's been done that way for a while, is a lame excuse. It conveys that only that ONE "god" is looking out for the gov't and proceedings. Separate 'em! Moments of silence allow INDIVIDUALS to say their own prayers to their own gods = EVERYONE is included.

If it's public, and it's publicly funded, then keep churches/religion out of it. If it's privately funded then GO FOR IT (as long as it's not harming anyone else).

[ollie]

Sing the national anthem, moment of silence, quote a famous Canadian ... there's many other ways to instill a little heritage into the proceedings.

"God keep our land glorious and free."

[SaggyBalls]

A mantra is a nice thought but it's sort of the first step to brainwashing.

A positive, strength-affirming speech that helps start each day with a foreward thinking focus that will lead those involved down an ethically and morally acceptable path.

If God is everywhere then why not live life like it? There are way more ways to assert it than a prayer.

Why not hold hands?

[Deeps]

Sing the national anthem' date=' moment of silence, quote a famous Canadian ... there's many other ways to instill a little heritage into the proceedings.[/quote']

"God keep our land glorious and free."

We'll yank it from the anthem once we get it out of the legislature Ollie. God? willing.

[ollie]

Our Father, which art in Heaven

Hallowed be thy Name

Thy kingdom come

Thy will be done, in earth as it is in heaven

Give us this day our daily bread

And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us

And lead us not into temptation

But deliver us from evil

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen

Reciting that every day throughout public school wasn't the worst thing that happened to me. "Take what you want, leave the rest."

Edit to add: And it certainly didn't lead to any brainwashing.

[phishtaper]

Edit to add: And it certainly didn't lead to any brainwashing.

the Manchurian Candidate thot the same thing

[SaggyBalls]

But it did get everyone on the same page.

God is implied in the lord's prayer but is explicitly stated in our national anthem...

'God' not 'Jesus'

Still pretty non-descript.

Could be 'All keep our land' if it's really that important (there are better things to spend our time on than changing one word in a song)

[ollie]

But it did get everyone on the same page.

Which page is that? I'm bloody agnostic for fuck's sake!

[Kanada Kev]

But it did get everyone on the same page.

God is implied in the lord's prayer but is explicitly stated in our national anthem...

'God' not 'Jesus'

Still pretty non-descript.

Yeah, but it was written with the intent that it was one specific god from one specific religion that was to "keep our land glorious and free". If it was meant to be an "god" that encompasses all beliefs then why wasn't it written as "Gods keep our land ..."? Just wondering.

Could be 'All keep our land' if it's really that important (there are better things to spend our time on than changing one word in a song)

I think I'll start singing it as:

"FSM keep our land glorious and free" ... or just insert another patriotic Oh Canada instead

IT is interesting to look at the French version as well, since it has words that are far from a direct translation

O Canada!

Our home and native land!

True patriot love in all thy sons* command.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise,

The True North strong and free!

From far and wide,

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

God keep our land** glorious and free!

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

* some sing "our hearts" instead of "thy sons", to be gender neutral.

** some sing "O, Canada" instead of "God keep our land"

and for the extended 12" remix, you can add these 3 verses:

O Canada! Where pines and maples grow,

Great prairies spread and Lordly rivers flow!

How dear to us thy broad domain,

From East to Western sea!

The land of hope for all who toil,

The true North strong and free!

God keep our land, glorious and free.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!

O Canada! Beneath thy shining skies,

May Stalwart sons, and gentle maidens rise.

To keep thee steadfast thro' the years,

From East to Western sea.

Our own beloved native land,

Our true North strong and free!

God keep our land, glorious and free.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!

Ruler supreme, who hearest humble prayer,

Hold our Dominion, in thy loving care.

Help us to find, O God, in thee,

A lasting rich reward.

As waiting for the better day,

We ever stand on guard.

God keep our land, glorious and free.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee

one more thing ... BOB WEIR wrote the english lyrics !!!!

The version on which the official English lyrics are based was written in 1908 by Mr. Justice Robert Stanley Weir.

Edited February 15, 2008 by Guest

[Birdy]

I'm with Ollie.

I'd rather there be a prayer than nothing at all. It's important to respect tradition just as it's important to understand where we came from and from what principles we were founded on. If that creates a feeling of exclusion, then sobeit. It's who 'we' are, whether you agree with it or not.

[hamilton]

I'm with Ollie.

I'd rather there be a prayer than nothing at all. It's important to respect tradition just as it's important to understand where we came from and from what principles we were founded on. If that creates a feeling of exclusion, then sobeit. It's who 'we' are, whether you agree with it or not.

But it's a mistake to respect a tradition just because it's a tradition. Communities and civilizations change, and so traditions are altered or dropped as those changes occur. Since the prayer provides no benefit but does cause some detriment in the form of excluding anyone - immigrant or not - who is not a Christian, it is not worthy of being kept on the basis of tradition alone.

The list of changes we have made to "our" traditions is endless - why should prayer in the legislature be some sort of sacred cow?

[ollie]

Since the prayer provides no benefit but does cause some detriment in the form of excluding anyone - immigrant or not - who is not a Christian, it is not worthy of being kept on the basis of tradition alone.

No benefit to you maybe but you can't speak for everyone.

Also, I am not a Christian and I do not feel excluded, in the least!

I still think most of y'all are big babies.

[d_rawk]

I'm with Hamilton.

It is totally hackneyed as part of official provincial proceedings. It reduces a wonderful personal meditation to cheap symbolic recital by rote. Its place in the legislature is contrary to our guiding civic values which, I think, are the more important tradition to preserve in our civic spaces. Blah blah.

I'd be very happy and impressed for interested members of the legislature to congregate together and recite the prayer before proceedings - of their own free will. And to take the words seriously. This proposed change doesn't preclude that.

[phishtaper]

It's who 'we' are, whether you agree with it or not.

i'd be willing to bet that my seventh-generation Canadian ass is more "we" than yours.

who are you to decide who is "we" and presumably "them"?

and if it's a case of simply being here longer, then we should all be smoking pipes while worshipping the Circle of Life, and the Sun and Moon and not praying to some imaginary dude who supposedly lives on top of clouds.

[Kanada Kev]

Gotta tell you, i sure am glad that "we" have gotten rid of many of "our" traditions over the years.

Trust me, I'm all for understanding and appreciating the past and not forgetting it. However, we need to realize when certain traditions and practices are no longer serving purpose, or are no longer acceptable to society as a whole (not just what society from the 19th century would deem acceptable).

[ollie]

It reduces a wonderful personal meditation to cheap symbolic recital by rote.

What about reciting the prayer in school? Like I said, I had it drilled into my head from grades 1 to 6, at least, and it had no ill effects on me. In fact, I like to think it taught me a little something, even if just about forgiveness. I'm glad to have had that experience.