Improv vs. Jamming (music geek style)

[Mr. Musicface]

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I think most people miss this point because most improv musicians act all pretentious and call songs "pieces".

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Hey there - just as minor point of clarification 'cus this is a pet-peeve of mine: there's nothing inherently pretentious about the use of the word "piece" vs. "song". "Piece" is the correct term for a musical work without lyrics, whereas a "song" has lyrics.

Now in defense of what the person who wrote this quote is saying, I do know that the term piece is used incorrectly by certain people to make things sound more grandiose then they are, but in and of itself its use shouldn't be seen as pretentious. If someone is creating instrumental music and describes their works as pieces, they're not necessarily guilty of anything other than using the language correctly.

Peace,

Mr. M.

[paisley]

I think it belongs to the integrity of the individuals involved as to how much you'd want to listen to it again after enjoying playing it, and the crazed timing

drunk still sunday paisley

I hate when people just beat on things but the least experienced of people can make some beautiful sounds if things are goin that way

and air is clear unless its polluted

ah, lets jam pre-jimmy swift and test the hypothesis... whatever happened to these satellite hookups? phone party line??

[paisley]

actually I usually really like it when people just beat on things

carry on

[kung]

I've been surfing that SecretArcade board Ahess recommended and it's full of really knowledgable shit. Found a thread I thought people would get a kick out of: improv music.

Here's a couple of comments:

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Most people I have had experience with seem to think improv just involves playing beatless and atmospherically and going on and on and then give up. Granted, I don't know many improv artists (I don't even know any names you mention) but I will admit that I am more into playing it than I am hearing it (though I still wanna see more before I commit myself to that statement). As I know it, improv differs from jamming because you are trying to create a coherent song -- complete with a beginning, middle, and end --with another person, or people, out of nothing. I think most people miss this point because most improv musicians act all pretentious and call songs "pieces". That sounds dumb, but I'm serious. Simple words have really affected how people I know view these kind of thing (like me).

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Here's my favourite:

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Man, I didn't even fully acknowledge your statement. Jamming is like... every agrees on some changes and all but one go BOM BOM BOM BOM BOM and the remaing goes WIDDLY WIDDLY WIDDLY and when they get sick of it they look at each other and go BOM BAH DUM BAM - OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

...or maybe that's what jazz is... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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[bouche]

quote:

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Originally posted by kung:

"WIDDLY WIDDLY WIDDLY"

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and on a related note...

[TonyRage]

This argument, no offence, is rather dumb. Improv is a term that implies not all notes are written down and the performer, based on some preconceived rules such as chord changes or modailty, can choose his notes and rhythms. Jamming is more complex but I would think involves more than one person improvising together and the communication that ensues.

ie...the individuals in a jazz combo jam together, but each member is improvising his/her part.

Not too tough....

As for "piece" vs. "song". I didn't know there was a difference. Seems like splitting hairs to me.

[AdamH]

"No offence, but this is dumb". I missed the rage that is Tony.

I suppose Jamming could be considered the sum of it's parts - improv musicians playing "together". It's the together part that always fucks up, at least that's been my experience in Jam-oriented situations. There's just too many people with tunnel vision and tunnel hearing, who are looking down at their notes instead of up at their fellow players. And although they're hearing their own notes they're not hearing everyone else's.

Finally, the biggest thing that differentiates the good from the bad in these jamming scenarios is whether the other players are taking solos while others take solos (which pretty much sounds bad no matter how you dice it). This is my biggest pet peeve when playing with others....the compulsion to noodle off to infinity instead of falling back and laying a solid foundation for someone to build on. Yo lose friends when you tell someone to back off soloing and take up the rhythm train, because presumably I'm cutting off their dick and telling them to go back to knitting a sweater.

[Mr. Musicface]

quote:

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Originally posted by tonyrage:

Jamming is more complex but I would think involves more than one person improvising together and the communication that ensues.

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Actually that about sums up my understanding of the difference in the terms - "improvisation" can just be one person making up a part around a theme or idea or whatever, but "jamming" pretty well has to involve at least two people generally reacting in some way to what each other are playing.

However...

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As for "piece" vs. "song". I didn't know there was a difference. Seems like splitting hairs to me.

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It's not splitting hairs - that's like saying the difference between a "clown" and a "mime" is splitting hairs. They're different terms for different things, plain and simple.

Sorry, like I said this is a pet-peeve so I'm gonna remain peevish about it.

- M.

[Jaimoe]

Where does the musical style Free Jazz fit into this comparison?

[Mr. Musicface]

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Originally posted by Jaimoe:

Where does the musical style Free Jazz fit into this comparison?

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"This is our bass player Derek Smalls. He wrote this."

Sorry, couldn't resist.