Religion in School

[d_rawk]

big AND soft ... (peter, paul)

[Thorgnor]

You say Tejada, I say Posada.

[Thorgnor]

I'm wondering if anyone has any stories of people - students or teachers - getting into fights or arguments in the class around religion, and how those were handled. I remember, e.g., having to defuse a fight between two Muslim students, one Sunni and the other Ahmadi, the former accusing the other of not being a "real" Muslim. That kind of thing. I have my own procedures to dealing with those arguments, but I'm curious whether anyone remembers a teacher managing (or failing) to resolve them.

I was once accused of perverting the teachings of Islam in a class. I was explaining the 5% understanding of "ALLAH" (arm, leg, leg, arm, head: of the Black man, because you can't get black skin from white reproduction, but you can get white skin from black reproduction through Albinism) and a Sunni dude kind of freaked out. It was a little sad actually to see him pleading with me that this is not REAL Islam. I asked him if Shi'i was "real" and he said yes but that Ahmadi, and Wahabbi interestingly enough, were perversions of the message. He seemed OK with the Roshaniyya and Moroccan/Egyptian/Indonesian Sufism though (?). My Prof. asked us to "please move on". :surprise:

I couldn't imagine a more apt place for the conversation, or a better opportunity to explain the difference between "academic" and "faith" based understandings/epistemologies. I also thought it would have been a great time to point out that any debate of that kind is clearly about something other than the religion itself. Arguing for or against a side just shows what version of authenticity someone values. These debates aren't about religion, they're about politics, gender, class, what have you. Any "claim" to religious knowledge is just that, a "claim". More than that, it is an assertion that takes for granted the a priori construction of "knowledge" without questioning what the belief itself "does"; how does it "matter" (make itself felt through force or intensity)?

It was a fourth year seminar on "Islam, Anthropology, and Muslim Societies" and I was the only "light-skinned" (of European descent) male in the class. I consider myself a "bad" Muslim, but a Muslim nonetheless. I didn't disclose that in the class though, it would have made things worse.

[StoneMtn]

Slightly off-topic, but I highly recommend you check out a book, Dave, called "The Taqwacores", about the Muslim Punk Rock scene:

The Taqwacores is the debut novel by Michael Muhammad Knight, depicting a fictitious Islamic punk rock scene. The title is a portmanteau of taqwa, an Islamic concept of love and fear for Allah, and Hardcore, the punk rock subgenre. Some of the most popular taqwacore bands are: The Kominas, Secret Trial Five and the Sagg Taqwacore Syndicate. The novel has also been credited by Asra Nomani as first presenting her the idea for woman-led prayer, leading to a historic woman-led congregation on March 18, 2005 with Amina Wadud acting as imam.

Knight originally self-published The Taqwacores in DIY zine format, giving copies away for free until finding distribution with Alternative Tentacles, the punk record label founded by Jello Biafra. After receiving an endorsement from Peter Lamborn Wilson (aka Hakim Bey), the novel was published by radical press Autonomedia. A UK version is published by Telegram Books. In its Italian translation, the novel is retitled Islampunk.

The narrator of The Taqwacores, Yusuf Ali, is a Pakistani American engineering student from Syracuse, New York who lives off campus with a diverse group of Muslims in their house in Buffalo. Besides being their home, the house serves as a place to have punk parties and a place for Muslims not comfortable with the Muslim Student Association or local mosques to have Friday prayer.

The book also inspired a documentary entitled Taqwacore: The Birth of Punk Islam, directed by Omar Majeed, which follows author Michael Muhammad Knight and several Taqwacore bands across the United States. It will be released in Montreal, Canada, at the Cinéma du Parc on October 19, 2009.

Soft Skull Press is publishing the revised edition, which became available in December 2008.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Thanks for the tip, StnM - will definitely check it out. It's that kind of thing that students would bring to class and most people would likely not have a clue about it (I know I just had to start educating myself on it).

Thorgnor - pity that conversation didn't get a chance to evolve. Maybe the guy was NOI and just ticked off (like the "scarlet and vermillion theory of religious conflict" would hold - those traditions that are almost nearly but not quite the same will fight with greater intensity than those that are completely different).

[Thorgnor]

'Funny' how Islam and Christianity can't seem to even talk about it, eh?

I have two of MMK's books, Taqwacores and The Five Percenters... he's right on. And I also find it fascinating that the first kick-startthe book got was from Hakim Bey, by some accounts a total heretic and possible CIA plant (charged with making Islam look "evil"). Another great read along similar lines is Heavy Metal Islam by Mark Levine, another one of America's "50 most dangerous scholars".

While Taqwacores is a novel in format I would hesitate to call it "fiction". I would call it magic realism in the vein of contemporary ethnography. I'm a nerd.

[SaggyBalls]

personally, I object to churches not having to pay property taxes, etc.

Why do you object to churches being exempt from paying taxes when you could just as easily rally for other groups to be exempt, as that's ultimately far fairer than changing the rules in a big pout?

Hey all. I'm running a session at school next week where I'll be delving into people's (teachers and students alike) experiences of/exposures to/conflicts around religion in the classroom, and I'm curious to hear what people here might have seen/survived/instigated/mitigated/etc. Thoughts?

My apologies for not actually responding to what you were looking for, but I don't really recall any serious issues. I always found it strange that the Jehovah's Witnesses always left the room for the anthem and Lord's Prayer instead of humbly being in the room or going over last night's homework instead of standing and reciting.

All throughout my time in schools it just seemed so entirely flaky that so many religious symbols and ideals were never explained or expressed as such.

It was always 'Christmas' and 'Easter' never 'Holidays' - yet we never learned anything useful or insightful about what these times represented.

I know it contributed a lot to my lack of respect for the education system and the teachers that did nearly nothing to actually teach.

Aah...busy work.

[hamilton]

personally' date=' I object to churches not having to pay property taxes, etc. [/quote']

Why do you object to churches being exempt from paying taxes when you could just as easily rally for other groups to be exempt, as that's ultimately far fairer than changing the rules in a big pout?

Other groups such as...?

I'm not really sure why phishtaper's response is pouty in any way.

[StoneMtn]

Yes. Which other groups? How many exceptions do we need, until we have a veritable hierarchy in which some parties pay to be part of society, while others get to be free-riders, based on some misguided, historical, anachronistic, self-declared superiority?

[Thorgnor]

Yes. Which other groups? How many exceptions do we need, until we have a veritable hierarchy in which some parties pay to be part of society, while others get to be free-riders, based on some misguided, historical, anachronistic, self-declared superiority?

and that'd be different from what we have now how?

[StoneMtn]

Everything is a matter of degrees.

[phishtaper]

Yes. Which other groups? How many exceptions do we need' date=' until we have a veritable hierarchy in which some parties pay to be part of society, while others get to be free-riders, based on some misguided, historical, anachronistic, self-declared superiority?[/quote']

and that'd be different from what we have now how?

that was essentially my point ... you know, when i got all pouty and all.

[StoneMtn]

Pouty can be a good look, actually.

[phishtaper]

are you hitting on me?

[SaggyBalls]

Yes. Which other groups? How many exceptions do we need, until we have a veritable hierarchy in which some parties pay to be part of society, while others get to be free-riders, based on some misguided, historical, anachronistic, self-declared superiority?

Pay to be a part of society?

While you may believe that you can justify blind payment of taxes as a duty to 'society', suggesting that exemptions would be based upon outdated modes of thought is incredibly ironic.

I'm guessing that You are a member of a society - the Law Society.

Most people think that they are part of a 'society' but this is a myth. What is the common goal that everyone in 'society' is striving toward? What is 'our'(their) credo? What are 'our' (their) outlook, goals, ideals, and collective function?

When you use a word like 'Society', you'd better understand what it means. Of course you didn't capitalize it but perhaps you should have.

are you hitting on me?

I am, big guy.

There should be guidelines for tax exemption - although we will never be explicitly told that taxes are not a necessity of life when we are so easily led to believe whatever they tell us.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Guest
Maybe you're not a member of the Law Society, Stoney.

[Sarahbelle]

hmmm well I work for the Catholic board here in Hamilton.... I am not religious/chirstian... just got hired there first. I do definatly think it's strange. Catholicism goes beyond just religion, it has expectations on how you are to live your life. It really doesn't offer any other perspectives on religions. It also teaches that sex before marraige is wrong and abortion is wrong...

I think these expectations are really unrealistic.... I think I heard somewhere that pregnancy rates in catholic schools are a lot higher....

I do agree that there should be more faith based schools... I've also heard that the catholic board may eventually just disappear. In hamilton it's getting smaller and smaller and they are closing schools all over the place.

I do think that religion does belong in public schools too... just as long as it's World religions and students have an opportunity to discover and quesiton and make their own opinions of everything and not have it shoved down their throats like they do in the catholic board...

[d_rawk]

I do think that religion does belong in public schools too... just as long as it's World religions and students have an opportunity to discover and quesiton and make their own opinions of everything and not have it shoved down their throats

Agreed. Theology, like mathematics or philosophy, is a wonderful intellectual exercise.

Catholicism goes beyond just religion, it has expectations on how you are to live your life.

Without commenting on Catholicism specifically, I think we hit the crux of it here: where cultural norms bump up against mythos. Religion is a handy cultural emblem in that it tends to be deeply rooted -- I think this is primarily why we all end up in argument. The Irish wars aren't really about Protestant vs. Catholic, they are about British imperialism, but the quickest way to talk about it is to say that it is the Catholics against the Protestants. But really, nobody is concerned about the religiosity of it all.

I think we blame too much on 'religion' that should really be blamed on terrible human behaviour.

When I hear lines like "war is because of religion" I always want to say "have you *met* your fellow man?". Cultures clash.

I agree about the not-shoving-down-the-throat though, although this is complicated with the Catholic school board. As far as the 'mainline' school-board goes, though, I think discourse is always welcome.

[SaggyBalls]

Catholicism goes beyond just religion, it has expectations on how you are to live your life. It really doesn't offer any other perspectives on religions. It also teaches that sex before marraige is wrong and abortion is wrong...

I think these expectations are really unrealistic.... I think I heard somewhere that pregnancy rates in catholic schools are a lot higher....

Religion is all about how one lives their life, Sarahbelle.

How are these expectations unrealistic?

I suggest that they're realistic but improbable.

and while aspects of the abortion issue and the premarital sex issue can easily be argued to make those acts very wrong, that's a different issue than allowing them to occur and properly educating kids on both sides of the issue - which nobody seems to be doing properly.

While I'm 'pro-life' in a literal sense and certainly believe that any woman that is healthy enough to bring a child to term should make any possible effort to do so and then possibly put that child up for adoption, I'm also pro-choice as it should certainly be an option for medical reasons and my moral position is not more important than a person's medical position.

getting into the unwanted pregnancy issue - though there are various shades of grey, even tinted with other parts of the spectrum, is certainly the only part of the abortion discussion where the right/wrong debate can occur

People do 'the wrong thing' all the time. Either way, Forgiveness certainly is the Christian thing to do and that is a debate and moral concern that those directly involved (certainly not me ever in any way medically possible) are the only ones that can and should be able to choose.

Of course, this is my opinion, but it is a compassionate and pragmatic one...far more objective and expansive than the opinions I've been subjected to in the media.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

People do 'the wrong thing' all the time. Either way, Forgiveness certainly is the Christian thing to do and that is a debate and moral concern that those directly involved (certainly not me ever in any way medically possible) are the only ones that can and should be able to choose.

I find myself thinking about Jesus forgiving the woman about to be stoned for adultery, at the same time as picturing him unswervingly kicking the moneychangers out of the temple.

d_rawk is spot on, I think - culture (and politics and economics) is so much a part of the contentious issues, and religion just gets dragged in as a convenient (and messy) shorthand. The communal fighting in India is another case - Hindus and Muslims divided (by the British) against one another because of accidents of economics (e.g., one community farms the jute, the other manufactures it). And there have been a few people that have noted how those judges in the US fighting tooth and nail to keep the 10 Commandments in their courts seem to be weirdly fixated on it in a way that they wouldn't if, say, the text in question were the Sermon on the Mount.

[StoneMtn]

When you capitalize "society", after giving it your own definition, you change the meaning of what I wrote.

After close consideration, I confirm I did not err in not capitalizing, but thanks for the suggestion.

[Thorgnor]

I'm pretty sure we're all "capitalizing" around here.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

I sure did . Thanks, everybody, for throwing in their $.02. Many of the experiences and themes here ended up being brought up and mirrored in all sorts of different ways in the session yesterday (which I'm glad to say went really well). Funny, the most consistent theme was the tension between those calling themselves "recovering Catholics" and those who still considered themselves very much Catholic. Not what I'd been expecting, but it made for some very interesting dynamics, for sure.

[Thorgnor]

The nearer the farther, the closer the fewer.