Private Jets!

[Birdy]

AD, Davey Boy, please tell me you both can tell the MAJOR difference between Conservatives in Canada and Republicans in the USA.

I would never, ever vote Republican.

Edited November 21, 2008 by Guest

[Thorgnor]

Birdy, are you actually saying that they didn't claim the economy was sound in Canada? I'll never be able to convince you either if you insist on hearing whatever you want to.

Which party pushed for de-regulation in the previous parliament? You just hate to admit when you're wro... aren't right.

[The Constable]

Cars are cars nowadays whether built by a North American or Japanese manufacturer. There really is little difference between them in terms of quality. All major car companies are building in North America and all are building cars for which there is or has been market demand. To suggest that Japanese automakers had some revelation that North American manufacturers didn't in embracing hybrid technology is false. Toyota and Honda continue to build huge gas guzzling SUVs and trucks just like the Big Three (see Toyota Sequoia SUV & Tundra puck up truck, Honda Pilot SUV & Ridgeline pick up truck). Steering wheels cost the same, tires cost the same, engines cost the same. On those elements the playing field is relatively level.

Where the difference lies is in the Japanese automaker's avoidance of union organization. This has become their primary competitive advantage over the Big Three. Until GM, Ford and Chrysler get out from under the mountain of waste and legacy cost heaped on them by organized labour they'll never recover.

[Birdy]

Birdy, are you actually saying that they didn't claim the economy was sound in Canada? I'll never be able to convince you either if you insist on hearing whatever you want to.

Which party pushed for de-regulation in the previous parliament? You just hate to admit when you're wro... aren't right.

Seriously? I've admitted i'm wrong a few times and seemingly have had no problem in doing so. The latest was like... two days ago in the Yayyy God thread. But thanks for always going the extra notch to dig it in there!

If you want to play the game of they're wrong, they're right go ahead. But it really does little by way of allowing any kind of progression when you hold people to what they thought when times were different.

And just because they're wrong, doesn't make you de facto right.

Edited November 21, 2008 by Guest

[Davey Boy 2.0]

AD, Davey Boy, please tell me you both can tell the MAJOR difference between Conservatives in Canada and Republicans in the USA.

of course there are differences but consider this: Iraqi war: cost so far to the US is more than half a trillion dollars. If Steve had been in place when all that went down we'd be there too. Perhaps the war isn't the sole factor for the current economic crisis but things would look a whole lot rosier if the american tax payers weren't on the hook to the tune of a couple of thousand dollars per second

Add to that Steve's tendency to bend over for the Bushies and all of a sudden certain aspects of the two govts don't seem so different

[Davey Boy 2.0]

i'm withdrawing from this seemingly sisyphusian thread

[Birdy]

I hear what you're saying Davey, but a lot of what you're saying is also based on assumption (to be fair). Assuming he had a majority government, assuming he didn't want to get re-elected, assuming that he'd listen to the polarized right-wing of his party (without considering that's the very part of the party he's trying to squish).

I said it before, but I wouldn't have voted for the CP if I thought they'd get a majority. I'm all about the minority and the ability that has to *hopefully* get us to all work together and be as close to representative government as we can get within the system.

And all about being able to learn from our mistakes.

Edited November 21, 2008 by Guest
trying to be less sisyphusian.

[Thorgnor]

times weren't different, they were lying, you bought it, that's digging it in.

look at the current budget numbers and contemplate the tax cuts they've already given to these guys, there goes gov't revenue and the ability to weather unforeseen storms. incomes deficit. they've contributed to the business environment which hasn't effectively taken into consideration the environmental costs of their policies or the changing world economy. the lack of proper regulation and legislation has fueled the greed and the entenchment. The example of closed door meetings hasn't helped transparancy any.

3 years ago - against the G20 (Paul Martin's idea I believe)

3 months ago - "We will weather the storm"

"We will not run a deficit"

stop me when I'm off base, they aren't helping because they don't know how to, they're waiting for Liberal cues and clues.

It's sad. Japan's economy is tanking too.

this is about so much more than an unsustainable business model that consumers, who should be citizens, are only partly demanding. the government has actively participated in this mess and now they pull out Leftist tactics and say times they are a changin'?!?!?!? and you follow that too.

[Birdy]

Dude, i'm done. I've said my piece on the big three, how i think and how i want something that's better for everyone. You're taking it to the next level to attack my politics when you know little to nil of them, so where's this going? Nowhere. Defending myself gets tyring when all i want is to find a way for us all to work together... that requires a little forgiveness and little less 'i told you so'. I've yet to find a political party that's perfect across the board... and who knows, maybe the perfect of today is going to be an absolute disaster tomorrow.

[AD]

i thought you were deliberately writing 'conservative' with a small c. sue me

[ollie]

I think it's in all of our best interest to recognize that we're in this together, obviously blame is going to be laid, but it should be laid around the entire table. Noone is really better than the next.

I knew you'd come around to socialism.

[Birdy]

Hehe... i've always had a *bit* of it in me.

[MoMack]

Where the difference lies is in the Japanese automaker's avoidance of union organization. This has become their primary competitive advantage over the Big Three. Until GM, Ford and Chrysler get out from under the mountain of waste and legacy cost heaped on them by organized labour they'll never recover.

My understanding is that a Toyota Plant worker in Cambridge (is it?) is making the same as GM line workers were making in Oshawa. Thats how they've kept the unions out. If they weren't on par then the union would have got in.

I'll admit that this may provide them with more flexibility now.

I always thought one of the real differences was the very business model used between "foreign" and "domestic". ie. Toyota and Honda are building the cars once they're purchased. GM/Ford build them to sit on the lot. As such they are forced to clear everything out at the end of the year when no one wants the gas guzzlers or inferior products. Then they throw out a nice 0% lease rate for a car that will depreciate at lightspeed and won't be worth anything when the lease gets turned back in. Not to mention the fact that they cannot react to the change in consumer demand as quickly as the build it once its sold model.

No?

[SaggyBalls]

You could hold back salaries for all executives at all the Big Three automakers for the next ten years and it wouldn't make a measurable bit of difference. There's a reason GM, Ford and Chrysler are on Capital Hill begging for bailout money while companies like Toyota and Honda are poised to emerge as industry leaders once the economy rebounds. It has nothing to do with better quality vehicles or executive compensation or environmentally friendly products.

That's right. Currently the field is fairly even, but years and years of BETTER product, and BETTER branding have finally worked their way into our driveways...cause when the Japanese cars stand up better as USED cars we understand that there's a reason that people bought that corolla for $5000 more than the Chevy cavalier.

The legacy of greed within labour unions and their unwaivering stance that they'll not make concessions under any circumstances is what's caused this mess. It's time to burst the union bubble. The $30 or $35 an hour a line worker gets to attach a bumper to a Ford Focus is overvalued. The full ride health care plans that follow retirees and their families to their graves have bled these companies dry.

It's the wavering stance of the automakers and their inability to look 15 years in the future. It's the lack of financial padding and adjusting to world markets. It's not just the unions.

I just heard about a program that ensured autoworkers a wage for 48 weeks with an option to renew for years if s/he were laid off. i don't remember what it's called, but it's significant. At the time it was used as a bargaining chip in a plant strike, but now...just think about what this is gonna cost...

On the flip side of the coin, that program would have been the perfect incentive as a part of a checks and balances system...so companies can MAKE SURE to not have to shut down factories.

What have the big 3 done to ensure that people would buy their products over everyone else?

nothing.

The potential for Ford, GM, and Chrysler to make the best products in the world (and really, with the money they had and made it was definitely an option) was pissed away.

Deny the bailout request. Force the Big Three into bankruptcy and shatter existing union contracts into a million pieces. $25 billion dollars won't go far without bottom to top restructuring of labour agreements. It's easy to look at executives and place blame but the real root cause here is the union rank and file membership and their misguided representatives.

deny the bailout request with an unwavering tone until they have a plan that will bring strength back to Canada and the US, with strong focus on building affordable commuting vehicles, public transit, mass transit, and a promise and a plan to push for pedestrian and cycle options for urban planning around the continent.

They need to ensure they can give a lot more back to the communities they've failed to work for.

As such an important pillar in the economies of Canada and the USA, they have a lot to be held accountable for.

I would love to see what happens if they just let it fall to shit. It isn't going to happen.

Too bad for the powers that be, addicts need to hit rock bottom before they can really pick themselves up.

truly a shame.

[SaggyBalls]

Consumers didn't DEMAND SUV's and big cars.

They were SOLD them...not a difficult sell.

Who doesn't like driving big overpowered cars?

Get used to a Yukon and then try having to have sex in the front seat of a Honda Civic.

You can't blame the consumers on this one.

[bradm]

I read an article last week (linked to from fark.com, which seems to be my source for a lot of economic info these days, which may be indicative of just how bad things are...) which asked a question: If a company (GM, say, or AIG) is thought to be "too big to fail", why were they allowed to be that big in the first place, and why aren't we rethinking that policy? The article's author suggested that if a company like Saturn was on its own it would be much more likely (or able) to introduce some new car technology (hybrids, electric vehicles, etc.) than it would as a division of a huge company like GM.

It occurs to me that with something like vehicles (arguably the most capital-intensive consumer product market), for a new technology to become commonplace, it has to be introduced by a company with a certain minimum size. (Consider that electric vehicles have been produced and available for decades now, but there hasn't been a big enough manufacturer of them to make them commonly available.) On the other hand, if a manufacturer is too big, corproate inertia and conservatism will prevent it from taking chances.

I wonder if the solution for General Motors is to split it up into several distinct specific Motors. Among other things, this would greatly increase the chance that one of the new independent Motors could be CEOd by a visionary innovative leader similar to Steve Jobs.

(Yes, I realize that splitting GM would take years, a lot of money, and might not be possible at all. But I still think it's a neat idea.)

Aloha,

Brad

Edited November 22, 2008 by Guest
Found the article.

[Thorgnor]

You're right again dude. The corporate machine has been de-regulated to a point long past the Adbusters "personhood" and "zero liability" issues. The original corporations were disbanded when they became to big and too powerful, the wealth was nationalized and re-invested in small corporations in the hope that some would succeed wildly. Now the size of corporations prevents innovation and entreprenurial spirit. In this case I think I might sound awfully conservative myself but it seems that $25 billion would do more for the economy if it was forced to actually circulate through the economy, say by doling it out as a [color:gray]tax cut. Individual investment would take the place of a collapsed industry, and although it could be disasterous in the short term it could lead to a more sustainable innovation style drive similar to the development of the early steam engine, in small businesses garages. Definitely gonna fuck up the space program though.

[SaggyBalls]

imagine being the guy that just let it all fall flat on its face.

Imagine the threat to your security.

Imagine trying to get a job after that.

Imagine your conscience.

[Thorgnor]

imagine all the people living for the day

[SaggyBalls]

It's gonna be a challenge either way.

I hope the problem is solved intelligently without spite and malice.

[Thorgnor]

With that much money involved? I think "malice" might be what the "M" in the acronym M.O.N.E.Y. stands for.

[SaggyBalls]

That's really not a lot of money.

[Thorgnor]

You got it in your bank account?... I dare say a shred of that dough would change your life just like it would mine.

Edited November 24, 2008 by Guest

[SaggyBalls]

I don't - and It sure would.

That being understood, as well as support for small and medium sized business, letting the auto industry fall on its face in Canada would be really damaging to our overall Economy.

You gonna be able to handle a 15 year depression without bitching about it if they let it go?

[Thorgnor]

yup.