depression

[MoMack]

I realize that we're not supposed to talk politics here. But it bothers me so much that so many of our kind (read: hippies) are so apathetic at the voting polls. If people put nearly as much effort into an election and voting as we do into getting phish tickets then this world would be a better place...

just my thoughts.

[Booche]

I dont know about your friends, but most I know on here vote regularily.

Those that think, hopefully vote.

Not to be a dick or anything, but get people you know out to the polls. A vote is better than no vote, and consider this:

Opposition in the house is a good thing, if you dont like the cards the house is holding.

Call me crazy here, but I would think the majority of people on this board actually vote.

[MoMack]

I meant the greater community. Not necessarily jambands.ca or even Canadians...

although when I think about it I would still guess that the voter turnout on this board is less then average.

[shainhouse]

I personally don't vote, because I haven't found someone worth voting for yet. (that has a chance)

[meggo]

i f'n vote every chance i get. it might be cliche, but green party baby, all the way. that's how i saw the world this week...

[hamilton]

quote:

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Originally posted by shainhouse:

I personally don't vote, because I haven't found someone worth voting for yet. (that has a chance)

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That's not an excuse. Don't agreee with *any* positions? Here's what you do: Go to the polling station, and behave like any other person who is registering to get their ballot. When they hand you your ballot, hand it back to them and clearly say, "I am declining my ballot."

This is a perfectly legal option, and it is recorded as a declined ballot. It's not the same as just not voting. You might not vote for any number of reasons, including simply being too lazy. Declining your vote sends a message - that you *care* enough to go vote, only you cannot in good conscience support any of the candidates.

Needless to say, this won't change much, but let's not forget that voter turnout is pathetically low in Canada (here in Korea, they had a record *low* turnout in the last election - 70%; if that happened in Canada, people would be cheering about the *good* turnout). If the main reason that people don't vote is because they don't like any of the candidates, and *all* of those people went out and declined their ballots, that could send a pretty strong message. Politicians might care when they find out that up to 40% of the population can't support any of their parties...

Brian.

PS - and yes, I've done it before - twice, to be exact.

[bradm]

quote:

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Originally posted by shainhouse:

I personally don't vote, because I haven't found someone worth voting for yet. (that has a chance)

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quote:

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Originally written by Robert A. Heinlein*

If you are part of a society that votes, then do so. There may be no candidates and measures you want to vote for... But there are certain to be ones you want to vote against. In case of doubt, vote against. By this rule you will rarely go wrong.

If this is too blind for your taste, consult some well-meaning fool (there is always one around) and ask his advice. Then vote the other way. This enables you to be a good citizen (if such is your wish) without spending the enormous amount of time that truly intelligent exercise of the franchise requires.

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Aloha,

Brad

* From "The Notebooks of Lazarus Long".

[Groove Fetish]

or...if you feel that there is no one worth voting for there are other mechanisms to employ to be politically active but it is essential to participate- especially if you do not agree with what is going down.

Like protesting since we are still able.

[Super Freak]

It takes so little effort to vote, walk in, register,make and X or two and walk out. That 3 minute effort gives you the right to comment on political issues. If you can't bring yourself at least spoil your ballot, you should shut your cake hole about all things political-your opinion means nothing.

Don't take for granted our right to vote. Others are not so lucky.

[Dennis]

Voting is both important AND serious. While I fully believe that you should vote for the party YOU feel represents your views, every vote does have power. Had the Nadar votes in Florida gone to the Democrats, we wouldn't have this mess today (and I like Ralph!).

[Hux]

...whatever arcane....

I've worked "IN" the political system for about 5 years now, not the civil service - but IN Parliament for an MP, and I must say, it is a lot easier to be cynical and make all these "conspiracy" laced assumptions, than it is to actually get something done.

"However, these people are going to listen more intently to their non-elected advisors"

Sorry, while this may be true in some cases, this is not the normal course of action. I have seen "normal Canadians" get a hell of a lot done for this country, and have a lot of influence with pure sweat and determination. You just have to step up and DO IT!

For every report or accusation of "self-interested patronage or favours by politicians" 1000's of people are helped and a lot of good is done every single day - they just aren't reported. It sells a lot more newspapers to report the negative.

And just because there are protests, doesn't mean our gov't isn't listening to the people.

Politics is about making choices. Rarely is there a concensus among Canadians on an issue, and therefore politicians and gov'ts have to use their judgement to decide which is the best course, we elect these people to exercise this judgement on our behalf, and if we don't like their decisions, we don't vote for them next time around. Compared to a lot of the world, we are lucky we can legally protest against our government.

I will not deny Politicians work to be re-elected, but the best way for this to happen is for them to help people in their ridings and basically do the most for their community that they can.

I guess one of the first things I realized when I started working here is that most of the MP's work their asses off, some 15-20+ hours a day...sure there are some assholes, but most are genuinely trying to make this country and the world a better place. I can 100% confirm this with personal experience. Comments like "they're all self-interested" and "corrupt", is baseless, and only perpetuates the myth, which in turn weakens the system, and further increases apathy, and things like low voter turnout, which in turn could arguably weaken the overall system.

Basically, if you want to change reality, doing it from "within" is the most effective way if you work your ass off, in my view.

There is no such thing as a perfect democracy, but it beats the alternatives hands-down - every time.

(I still love ya arcane )

[Im going home Donny]

In my opinion....I would be very pleased if Canada and the U.S. were to adopt Australias vote or be fined policy. If I can be fined for not registering my dog...why not fine me for not doing something that realy has an impact on everyones life.

[arcane]

Still love you too, Dr Hux

I'm not speaking from the perspective of having read selected newspaper reports--me, I rarely read the newspaper. It's too depressing. Rather, I'm writing from my own experiences with down-in-the-trenches issues that don't get fixed because certain self-interested people and agencies keep them out of the limelight. These issues aren't always large enough to merit much consideration from the population at large unless the media machine is running full-blast.

I'm glad your experiences have been better than mine but, unfortunately, I can give examples of unethical behaviour and attempts within the system to cover it up. I'm not doing it here, though, since that level of detail that would bog this discussion right down into the weeds.

A higher-level issue I championed 15 years ago, with very solid scientific evidence to back me up, is *finally* being remedied by the provincial legislature. Until recently, this was held up by people whose power was threatened by change. Note that very few of these people would have suffered any economic consequences--this was strictly a power issue.

I believe that there are some good people in the system, people that I think we're more likely to find at the municipal level. Provincial and federal politics are expensive to break into.

Keep in mind that voter turnout is low for a reason. Apathy? I think that's a contributing factor. I'm more inclined to speculate about the lack of voter confidence in the system. As an electorate, we didn't all wake up one morning and suddenly decide that we didn't trust our elected officials. The various levels of government have lost our trust for several reasons. I don't see a lot of sincere efforts to add the appropriate checks and balances to regain that trust. Rather, these things are done on a case-by-case basis to issues that cause the greatest embarassment to the departments involved.

As well, we can't vote on everything, or we'd spend our days doing nothing but voting. This is another reason that our elected officials should be engendering our trust--they're the ones voting on our behalf.

I'm not saying that voting is bad--I don't believe that. I *am* saying that there are good reasons for believing that its power has dwindled. As much as it might appear to be so, this isn't knee-jerk cynicism. Just as it is easy to write off politicians as automatically being "self-serving" or "corrupt," it is too easy to write off criticism of the system as "uninformed" or "lazy." I'm neither. I have no interest in politics, so I don't tend to speak up about it unless I have a good reason. Right now, I'd have to say that there are parts of the provincial government that need to be dismantled and reassembled from scratch. It won't happen anytime soon, if at all. More likely, embarassing incidents will be made public and patches will be applied.

Frankly, I like the idea of "vote or get fined."

[arcane]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr. Huxtable:

Comments like "they're all self-interested" and "corrupt", is baseless, and only perpetuates the myth

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Cuz you're a nicer guy than that, I'm assuming you recognize that I didn't say that.

quote:

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There is no such thing as a perfect democracy, but it beats the alternatives hands-down - every time.

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Pretty much. On the other hand, in a perfect democracy, minority interests would be trampled. I don't think that's what we want, either.

[Hux]

arcane wrote:

"Keep in mind that voter turnout is low for a reason. Apathy? I think that's a contributing factor. I'm more inclined to speculate about the lack of voter confidence in the system. As an electorate, we didn't all wake up one morning and suddenly decide that we didn't trust our elected officials. The various levels of government have lost our trust for several reasons. I don't see a lot of sincere efforts to add the appropriate checks and balances to regain that trust. Rather, these things are done on a case-by-case basis to issues that cause the greatest embarassment to the departments involved."

I guess my issue with this is in regards to the "lack of voter confidence in the system" you cite, there is no question that polls indicate that this is the case. I guess from my experience, I feel that while there will always be some corrupt individuals in every aspect of life...the negative public perception of our politicians/system in Canada does not reflect reality, but instead, and image that has been created, and inflated by the media, and the opposition's (all parties) focus on scandal, and the disproportionate air-time such "sexy" items get compared to "positive-outcome" stories.

Have you heard of the "CPI = Corruption Perceptions Index"? - it's a study put out by a non-governmental organization "Transparency International", and they've developed a rating system for determing "how corrupt" a gov't is (that was a huge simplification of the study) but year after year, Canada is near the top of the list, in 2002, we were 7th out of 102 countries....I guess what I'm trying to say is, I really think the perception that our Canadian system is corrupt, is innacurate, and could use a little proportion/context, and the CPI provides that...Of course, there is always room for improvement, but in my experience - we ain't too bad...

Transparency Int'l website, with 2002 CPI results:

http://www.transparency.org/pressreleases_archive/2002/2002.08.28.cpi.en.html

[arcane]

Interesting.

The lack of confidence might not be entirely due to the perception of corruption, though. I think the tremendous inertia in so much of the system can make it hard to get things changed, leading to a "why bother?" mentality.

Part of this problem is that when a new government is elected, not all of the system changes with it. Yes, there are some good reasons for it. However, many of these constants are powerful and governed mainly by legislation, yet operate at arms-length. That is, their accountability to the government and the electorate is minimal, so their reporting is elusive. This makes it difficult to prove a case to the legislature when something *does* need to be changed.

In short, if you have a problem with one of these bodies, you must prove your case to the legislature to get things changed. However, because historical and financial data isn't available to you or to your elected representative, it can be extremely difficult to prove that the issue is a problem to anyone but *you*. This makes it hard for elected officials to take seriously, as well. Hidden information tends to be viewed as a non-problem--out of sight, out of mind, we have no idea of how big this is, and for all we know, this problem doesn't exist, we have more tangible problems to deal with, go 'way.

Convincing such a body to disclose this information on an ongoing basis is a challenge: First, reporting takes time, money and effort; and second, disclosure opens them up to liability without offering an equivalent benefit to the organization. In the short term, the benefit is to the electorate and the process--the organization itself gains little while risking exposure of its flaws. In the long term, there is an issue of integrity that can be applied to the organization, but that's a tough sell in light of years of unaudited practices.

You might be surprised at how many loopholes exist and are ignored or waved off with a snotty "if you don't like it, change the legislation." Let me tell ya, when you're on the receiving end of that slap in the face enough times, you become brutally aware of the problem. Changing legislation for these organizations can take over a decade, and they're not going to sit quiet while you do it. For some issues, the wait is enough to remove the irritant. For others, the legal and consulting fees become prohibitive during that time.

Yes, I do have examples, dealing primarily with the provincial government. However, this is as close to a rant as I'm willing to get right now.

[dave-O]

quote:

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Originally posted by Super Freak:

If you can't bring yourself at least spoil your ballot, you should shut your cake hole about all things political-your opinion means nothing.

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Amen!

[arcane]

I see we're still labouring under the delusion that our elected officials will follow through with the mandates they espoused to get themselves elected, and that they will accurately represent the will of the populace in all other matters.

By all means, vote. Say "please" and "thank you," and chew with your mouth closed. Let the guy in the on-ramp merge in front of you. Call your grandmother once in a while to tell her how much you love her, even if you don't. It's polite, and it helps things run more smoothly.

Voting is a good thing, but unfortunately, we don't live in much of a democracy. Granted, sometimes we say we want to live in a democracy when we really don't. In this case, however, our various levels of government have entrenched so many self-serving processes--processes that attract people inclined to perpetuate them rather than fix them--and accumulated so much inertia that voting has been downgraded to the political equivalent of masturbation.

Basically, when it comes to the issues that effect us every day and on a personal level, it boils down to lobbying the people most inclined to champion the issues for you. Your vote then becomes some (small) leverage when dealing with elected officials. However, these people are going to listen more intently to their non-elected advisors, and those are the folks you truly need to have on your side.

How many of us here have participated in protests against the actions of our governments? This alone should stand as a testiment to the flaws in the electoral process.

Again, vote. But frankly, I'm not viewing it as the way to get the government that best represents the people. It's a step in the right direction, but it's not enough--just listen to our loud-and-proud demonstrations against our governmental policies.

And, like masturbation, voting will make you feel better.

[hamilton]

quote:

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Originally posted by howler:

In my opinion....I would be very pleased if Canada and the U.S. were to adopt Australias vote or be fined policy. If I can be fined for not registering my dog...why not fine me for not doing something that realy has an impact on everyones life.

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This is wrong, too. Freedom in a democracy also means being free not to vote. Mamy people in Australia who are forced to vote either just spoil their ballots, or else they randomly choose a candidate - and as you said, since voting has a real impact on people's lives, voting at random is even more dangerous than not voting at all...

Brian.