The Chameleon Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 [color:blue]I'm interested in the average jambands.ca, person's view on why so few Canadian jam-bands break through to the U.S.? In fact the only one I can think of at all is the New Deal. I have my own jaded opinions (seeing as I'm in a band) but i wanna know what y'all think is the trouble for local bands to make it in the U.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dJEd Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 i don't care for that term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bouche Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 nero was getting alot of great feedback from the US. People knew of them. I figure that it all boils down to playing there as much as possible.There are so many jambands in the US. There are probably 25 times as many jambands in the US that are in Canada that don't even make a dent in their own country. disclaimer: I don't have stats to back my shit up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothedShredder Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 The border... those bitches make it hard to get down there, and vice-versa...Support local music!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 [color:purple]It's because Canadian bands suck...Seriously though, I think bouche got it right when he said:I figure that it all boils down to playing there as much as possible.There are so many jambands in the US. There are probably 25 times as many jambands in the US that are in Canada that don't even make a dent in their own country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chameleon Posted July 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 I agree with you guys. You gotta play in the US to make it as the real market for improvised music on a large scale is there for sure.However witrhout a established US booking agent it's almost impossible to break through. Which poses a second problem. There are only about 2 booking agents in the whole of Canada the understand the jam-band market and they don't readily accept new clients.And as for US booking agents they won't even accept unsolicited demos, especially if you're from Canada. Their logic is that, if you're not known in the US, they could just as easily develop and unknown US band and not have to deal with cross-border troubles etc. However to get known in the US you need to play there...but you can't get booked unless you're known etc...It's a real chicken and the egg scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velvet Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 The border... those bitches make it hard to get down there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bouche Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 The border... those bitches make it hard to get down there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 The border... those bitches make it hard to get down there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothedShredder Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 Also, Toronto is a bunch of cynical, work to hard, never get out, watch the OC, go to a club in my BMW SUV, and if it's not at the ACC or Ampitheatre, I've never heard of it kinda peoples... in general ... if Ontario worked well in supporting live music, then we could nuture and develop bands with strong stagemanship, but we crush them before they get off the groud... grumbling in the back and nursing a beer in a 1/4 full club. Since I've been working for about half a year now I have felt this about the quality of acts which I see from the East Coast: they support their music... the bands develop, and come to Ontario... and impress... not Lee's Palace, or the Pheonix impress, but none-the-less, they sure know how to play those instruments and make the audience, how-ever-small-it-may-be, get out of their chairs and ahve a good time. And isn't that what it's all about? Of course there are exceptions in Ontario... people try it here, get a thick skin, and head south where they just grow huge becasue they were held back so much in Ontario. i.e. Neil, Joni, and dare I say Barenaked ladies. But there's not enough good chemistry at the small club level in terms of audiences, bands, and everyone going home being properly compensated for their time. I mean minimum wage is around $7.00 right now, and I'm not taking into account band practice time, or travel. There's not enough happening to make the scene truly sustainable at this point (grey hairs... we could use some direct investments to tide us over ) If we want a wicked local scene, we really have to conciously support local acts, even if they're not the greatest yet... The audiences here are tough. They don't move... it's like they're judging harshly. Still, it's not all like this of course... cause I've been to some wicked parties, and with many of the people from this here community on Jambands. But, I've been told to 'SIT DOWN' at the Hip... maybe it's because we eat to much refined flour, corn startch, and preservatives... but I digress. Anywho, lots has to change... but at the core... if we want great big bands from here in the future, we are going to have to really support the talent now-a-day's, i.e. allow these people to work their craft, and not have to split their time up to work at the central beuracracy! Just how that's going to happen is complex... but I've got lots of idea's! peace, ~W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoMack Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 .. if Ontario worked well in supporting live music, then we could nuture and develop bands with strong stagemanship, but we crush them before they get off the groud... grumbling in the back and nursing a beer in a 1/4 full club. But there's not enough good chemistry at the small club level in terms of audiences, bands, and everyone going home being properly compensated for their time. I mean minimum wage is around $7.00 right now, and I'm not taking into account band practice time, or travel. There's not enough happening to make the scene truly sustainable at this point (grey hairs... we could use some direct investments to tide us over ) If we want a wicked local scene, we really have to conciously support local acts, even if they're not the greatest yet... The audiences here are tough. They don't move... it's like they're judging harshly. Still, it's not all like this of course... cause I've been to some wicked parties, and with many of the people from this here community on Jambands. But, I've been told to 'SIT DOWN' at the Hip... maybe it's because we eat to much refined flour, corn startch, and preservatives... but I digress. Anywho, lots has to change... but at the core... if we want great big bands from here in the future, we are going to have to really support the talent now-a-day's, i.e. allow these people to work their craft, and not have to split their time up to work at the central beuracracy! Just how that's going to happen is complex... but I've got lots of idea's! peace, ~W Just a quick couple thoughts that come to mind. I agree largely with what you say - but, here's the thing. I spent my few years "supporting the local scene" etc. etc. I watched one band that got well known in Ontario and Canada and started playing the US go from being a $5 band to being a $10 band. From being a band where the musicians chatted you up with no pretension (sp?) between sets to being a to cool for school (or me anyways) band. I also saw the crowd diminish in that time... I saw another band, of old friends no less, charge $5 each to me and the three people I dragged to the show at a pretty empty bar hours from where we lived as a cover. Now before you jump on me - I'm not suggesting that people play for free. But, in answer to the original post about "making it". I invested approximately $150,000+ in my 7 years of post-secondary education. Still have ALOT of that to pay back. I wonder how many of the bands that we would be discussing in this thread have been willing to invest the same amount of money in themselves, or even that much between the whole band? And I wonder if the bands that up cover from $5 to $10 realize that they just artificially prevented a whole new walk-up audience from ever coming in. Whether the band that charged me the $5 cover after driving hours to get in and finding an empty bar realized that I wouldn't be dragging other people to see these friends play after suffering that, well, embarassment I guess. And again, don't jump on me, but think about it from that perspective... how many bands think long-term and genuinely just try to play as much as they can for as many as they can...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimafleck: the living legend. Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 i'm just a fan...so i'm just talkin out of my ass.but if i had to guess...i think it would because...a band like the breakfast can tour NY state all year long and still find enough cities and venues to play .....in canada the cities and areas are further apart...more expensive to travel to adn so on...i guess this is a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chameleon Posted July 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 Dimafleck is very right. There are more places to play with more willing/open ears to support local bands, in the US and places like N.Y. state.Also clubs pay very little in Canada vs clubs in the US. Even for bands that are not large and are in a early to moderate stage of developement. Which makes it hard to keep going financially. I think that the whole patriotism mantra in the states even filters down to supproting local bands and homegrown talent.Canadians still need to be told by Europe or The US what is of value musically. We have to have talent sold back to us by someone else to really get excited about it. Sad. :thumbdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothedShredder Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 Just a quick couple thoughts that come to mind. I agree largely with what you say - but, here's the thing. I spent my few years "supporting the local scene" etc. etc. I watched one band that got well known in Ontario and Canada and started playing the US go from being a $5 band to being a $10 band. From being a band where the musicians chatted you up with no pretension (sp?) between sets to being a to cool for school (or me anyways) band. I also saw the crowd diminish in that time... hmmm... did their music start to decline when they became that way? Are they still playing. Sure it's a risk, raising the door from $5 to $10, but if they are sticking with it, they should be getting better?! And if they're not... no new songs, old songs not played with passion... then don't go! I saw another band, of old friends no less, charge $5 each to me and the three people I dragged to the show at a pretty empty bar hours from where we lived as a cover. [/quote.]well, if the bar was pretty empty, the best thing is to leave some money behind for the band. $5 to a band is worth alot more when there's only 10 people in the audience then when there is 1000. Each show ought to be sustainable. Still the whole freind factor exists... but if you were truly a friend, and not just trying to look cool youself (re:embarassment), then money shouldn't be a problem. Now before you jump on me - I'm not suggesting that people play for free. But, in answer to the original post about "making it". I invested approximately $150,000+ in my 7 years of post-secondary education. Still have ALOT of that to pay back. I wonder how many of the bands that we would be discussing in this thread have been willing to invest the same amount of money in themselves, or even that much between the whole band? Sorry, I hope I haven't 'jumped on you yet'. Hmmm $150,000, wow, that's alot! I'm guessing your in med school... Anyways... your particular case I don't think is representative of the mean school investment of the group of Youngish Canadians who come to the show. I group which I believe typically see's 7 out of 10 graduates leaving school with around $30,000 in debt over 4 years. Still, it's a moot point what the actual cost is. The reality for musicians is that there is no guranteed return, and the environment is so harsh that most of the times bands, as a buisness entity, cannot grow. The failure rate for bands must be high, and those bands that do fail probably never re-coup their investments inside the industry. Though you too have invest much time and money developing your skills, you've got a chance at a pro-central-buracracy position, and with a couple years of work, should be able to pay that back no problem. And I wonder if the bands that up cover from $5 to $10 realize that they just artificially prevented a whole new walk-up audience from ever coming in. Whether the band that charged me the $5 cover after driving hours to get in and finding an empty bar realized that I wouldn't be dragging other people to see these friends play after suffering that, well, embarassment I guess.And again, don't jump on me, but think about it from that perspective... how many bands think long-term and genuinely just try to play as much as they can for as many as they can...? true... people don't have time to focus on music, because they have to spend too much time on other things... I don't think any idividual can change the environment for bands... I've learned how to survive amongst this industry for a while, and I hope this experience will prepare me for if/when I want to go out and do it myself... what I am suggesting is we let half of those poor people who are stuck in rush hour traffic, and have no time for anything becasue they are so in debt they virtually slave for their salary, relax a bit... work from home... solve the rush hour question... leave more people with flexible time schedules... get people out early to see the bands... get more small town acts on the radio stations, get more people to listen to em... fix the clubs up so they ain't so scummy and dependant only on revenue from alcohol, get more people working as auxilary players in the music field instead of being responsible for box 3-ac12 on the Social Security box and let the computers and robots take over all the boring shit so we can actaully have fun... which is really what this is all about for me... less stress and more party mess!!! Hope you don't think I jumped on you MoMack ... still they were some self-centred arguments, and I'm going more for the benefit to society as a whole... I'm not mad at individuals for not go to the shows... just the masses... "Don't hate the fans, hate the band, there's usually much less of them" G.Downie ~W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoMack Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 Didn't jump on me no - But I'm not sure that you agreed with me, so I'm going to re-phrase. The monitary dollar of investment into the band isn't that important, its the investment that is. The fact that the band is willing to go the distance for themselves and is seeking to be HEARD, not seeking to get a few extra bucks from the door for the party that night.ie. its no different from your "central-beauracracy" or whatever you called it job. For me, I gave up 7 of my working years in sacrafice to get where I am now. I could have though, shit, I should work for $10/hour and possibly not made it thorugh school because of time, just like a band can ask for $10 at the door and by doing so they contribute to people not coming out, not walking by and popping in, not being convinced by friends to take a chance on a new band etc. etc.I guess, ultimately, in my experience, I'm not sure that a lot of these local acts necessarily see the bigger picture, or have the proper management influences in place to see the bigger picture for them... ...among other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothedShredder Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 Hey, ticket prices could be free for all I care, just as long as the bands got paid for their time, gas, and benefit to society... and got big appaluse and livelyness from the audience. But so much of the economic structure revolves around the door for the bands, and alcohol for the venue. There needs to be a bigger revenue stream (i.e. Merch, Food, Candy, Coffee). At most shows this is lacking, and it's usually cause the venue is a dive, or close to it. Whatever the mix, bands for a great deal of their development, lose money, and continue with the help of alternte employment (which dilutes their focus somewhat I believe). And there needs to be a more egalitarian mix between who gets what on the night of a show. Still, money is meant to flow... remember most of the stuff you have in the pocket is becasue the government subsidizes bread so it only costs a dollar a loaf, and gas, so it only costs a dollar a litre. It's your choice who makes money when you spend it... and I find most people choose to support materialism with their money than people. They'll gladly get an I-pod with $700's instead of going to 100 $7 shows. 1 I-pod represents maybe (i'm being generous I think) 100 man hours?!... 100 shows, 8 band members a night, bar, door. Add that all up you get maybe 3000+ man hours! Just some loose calculations, but I think its fair to say a little money can go a long way. Anyways... I'm just sayin', I think this is important, for the economy, and for the community. It's not really the people on this board I need to convince though... it's the other 95% of the people out there who wouldn't trust anything smaller than an ACC show, or a Club where the cover wasn't less than $30, and the doors don't open till Midnight. People here are the enlightened ones... though they can be a little harsh sometimes. "There are words that sow, and words that reap." L.W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothedShredder Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 Didn't jump on me no - I guess, ultimately, in my experience, I'm not sure that a lot of these local acts necessarily see the bigger picture, or have the proper management influences in place to see the bigger picture for them... ...among other things.agreed. But I have seen my share of talent too... and seeing the bigger picture is tough when your focused on how to get next months rent. I know it's complicated... I'm just going for a genral push in the right direction... no single group or individual will drive this... it's just got to be a general attitude change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boogieknight Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 I blame the word jamband. I never liked that word from the begining Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velvet Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 "I invested approximately $150,000+ in my 7 years of post-secondary""The monitary dollar of investment into the band isn't that important, its the investment that is"I'm guessing you got a student loan. I'm guessing if you didn't get a student loan, then completing university would have been much more challenging. There is no student loans for new bands. If young touring bands could borrow $50,000 to invest in their career, I bet the majority would.Arts grants aren't like student loans. They're like the 6/49. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bouche Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 The border... those bitches make it hard to get down theremmmm....nested quotes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bouche Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 But, I've been told to 'SIT DOWN' at the HipI was at the Orbit room for a rare opportunity to see Kevin Breit and the Sisters Euclid in April. I couldn't sit down! My feet were synched to the fricken groove. If you knew me, you'd see that I tend to stomp a bit when I catch a beat. I was very close to the only one up and moving, sure enough some yutz comes up to me and says "It's ok if you dance, just don't stomp". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothedShredder Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 "It's ok if you dance, just don't stomp". I think it's cause we are shy like the Fins... inventors of the Cell Phone... but loud like Americans. Yes, that IS what I think. Green Day's "Walking Contridtiction" comes to mind. It's exausting being Canadian . Wonder how life is going in Greenland? ~W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. J Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 Arts grants aren't like student loans. They're like the 6/49.Ah, so true Velvet. Sadly, financial support within the industry has basically disappeared for bands.With only 4 major labels in North America, these labels control most of what is played on radio and placed in retail shops across the country (which let's face it is what drives people to live venues). Unfortunately, unless you fit their formula (which most jambands don't) the majors don't want to talk to you. For awhile indie labels took up the slack, but it's almost impossible to compete with limited resources. Witness the recent demise of Three Gut Records.I think artists themselves have been slow to pick up on changes in the industry and continue to look at the "business" of muisc in an out-dated fashion. From an artistic point of view, one may cringe at having to think of music in this way, but in the end ,it may be the difference between surviving or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevO Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 Witness the recent demise of Three Gut Records.Sad news indeed! I didn't know about this. The explanation on the website, well, doesn't really explain much as to what happened."music seems crazy bands start up each and every day"- Stephen MalkmusSo true so true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velvet Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 On average, 200 debut albums are released per day on the majors in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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