Im going home Donny Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 What a caterpillar calls the end of the world, a master calls a butterfly.-Richard Bach-Reflections on the World Trade Center Attack-"How might the the ideas expressed in this chapter be used as a basis for understanding the events of Sept. 11, 2001? Lets start with the warning in Fox's schema. The stages outlined by Fox and Rotham described in the main a path of positive re-creation out of a dark time of suffering. But the interaction may not proceed so fruitfully. Matthew Fox reminds us that our spiritual power may also be a demonic power. If a serious problem is not dealt with to the satisfaction of the parties involved, there may come about a transformation - not toward listening, but towards alienation and violence.Extremism is found in all religions and some secular institutions(such as fascism), according to R.Scott Appleby. When powerfull leaders such as Osama Bin Laden come to believe, because of thier own experiances at the hands of secular powers, that the world is in spiritual crisis, they may justify violence on theological or ideological grounds. Islamic extremism appears to have started in the 1920s as an initiative by freedom fighters to gain independance from colonial powers in Egypt and was revived more recently against the Soviet Union in Afganistan. Currently, Bin Laden has reinvented the movement, apparently to drive the Western presence from Islamic states and to punish the United States for what he sees as a betrayal of his former allegiance to it.Taking upon himself the authority of an avenging messianic prophet, he has used the structures of Western society against itself. His tactics are an example of guerilla warfare on a global scale, which has caused profound anxiety about our own security and even our own values. Is he concerned about the ills of our society, its injustices and its corruption? Is he seeking its transformation to a Islamic theocracy as an alterative to secularism? We cannot guess but his acts have been widely condemned by both ordinary, pious Muslims worlswide and by states where Islam is the dominant religion.Whatever Bin Laden's motives, they are clearly criminal and cannot be justified on any ethical or accepted religious grounds. Moreover, as they appear to be carried out to destroy a society, it is difficult to concieve of how they might serve to redress wrongs or bring about justice. They appear to be ends in themselves, rather than a means to better Bin Ladens own people.What might we do about the attacks? Such events do not occur in a vacuum. We have the responsibility to examine the circumstances that may have led to the actions, both of the leader and of his followers. Jim Wallis' statement, which I quoted earlier, rings true:"We must speak of the need to drain the swamps of injustice that breed the mosquitos of terror and find a way to make this a teachable moment rather than merely a blame game."Who are our enemies? They are not Muslims in general, who abhor the notion of the Qur'an being used as a license to kill innocent civilians. For the Qur'an states, "If anyone slew a person...it would be as if he slew a whole people. And if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people" (Surah 5:32). This catastrophe has been the occasion for many meetings across relgious divides and has brought greater understanding of the profound truths that each tradition provides.It may be our purpose, then, to take this crisis as an opportunity to change the game again - to rebuild structures of justice, openess and truth; to foster equality, democracy and human rights within and beyond our borders; to use our influence as individuals or as members of groups working for social justice, or as representatives of political organizations and governments. Our focus must be to bring about peace and security with equity to regions where we have in the past fostered, for our own commercial interests, political regimes that continue to deny these same benifits to thier citizens.The response of states targeted by the terrorists has depended largely on militarism. Shoul this lead to further outbreaks of retaliation by non-state actors, then we may well find that Yeats' prediction has come to pass:that "Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world."-Dr.Elinor D.U.Powell-The Heart Of Conflict-A spirituality of Transformation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phorbesie Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 another article...JEFF JACOBYWe are all Danes nowBy Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | February 5, 2006HINDUS CONSIDER it sacrilegious to eat meat from cows, so when a Danish supermarket ran a sale on beef and veal last fall, Hindus everywhere reacted with outrage. India recalled its ambassador to Copenhagen, and Danish flags were burned in Calcutta, Bombay, and Delhi. A Hindu mob in Sri Lanka severely beat two employees of a Danish-owned firm, and demonstrators in Nepal chanted: ''War on Denmark! Death to Denmark!"In many places, shops selling Dansk china or Lego toys were attacked by rioters, and two Danish embassies were firebombed.It didn't happen, of course. Hindus may consider it odious to use cows as food, but they do not resort to boycotts, threats, and violence when non-Hindus eat hamburger or steak. They do not demand that everyone abide by the strictures of Hinduism and avoid words and deeds that Hindus might find upsetting. The same is true of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Mormons: They don't lash out in violence when their religious sensibilities are offended. They certainly don't expect their beliefs to be immune from criticism, mockery, or dissent.But radical Muslims do.The current uproar over cartoons of the Muslim prophet Mohammed published in a Danish newspaper illustrates yet again the fascist intolerance that is at the heart of radical Islam. Jyllands-Posten, Denmark's largest daily, commissioned the cartoons to make a point about freedom of speech. It was protesting the climate of intimidation that had made it impossible for a Danish author to find an illustrator for his children's book about Mohammed. No artist would agree to illustrate the book for fear of being harmed by Muslim extremists. Appalled by this self-censorship, Jyllands-Posten invited Danish artists to submit drawings of Mohammed, and published the 12 it received.Most of the pictures are tame to the point of dullness, especially compared to the biting editorial cartoons that routinely appear in US and European newspapers. A few of them link Mohammed to Islamist terrorism -- one depicts him with a bomb in his turban, while a second shows him in Heaven, pleading with newly arrived suicide terrorists: ''Stop, stop! We have run out of virgins!" Others focus on the threat to free speech: In one, a sweating artist sits at his drawing board, nervously sketching Mohammed, while glancing over his shoulder to make sure he's not being watched.That anything so mild could trigger a reaction so crazed -- riots, death threats, kidnappings, flag-burnings -- speaks volumes about the chasm that separates the values of the civilized world from those in too much of the Islamic world. Freedom of the press, the marketplace of ideas, the right to skewer sacred cows: Militant Islam knows none of this. And if the jihadis get their way, it will be swept aside everywhere by the censorship and intolerance of sharia.Here and there, some brave Muslim voices have cried out against the book-burners. The Jordanian newspaper Shihan published three of the cartoons. ''Muslims of the world, be reasonable," implored Shihan's editor, Jihad al-Momani, in an editorial. ''What brings more prejudice against Islam -- these caricatures or pictures of a hostage-taker slashing the throat of his victim in front of the cameras?" But within hours Momani was out of a job, fired by the paper's owners after the Jordanian government threatened legal action.He wasn't the only editor sacked last week. In Paris, Jacques LeFranc of the daily France Soir was also fired after running the Mohammed cartoons. The paper's owner, an Egyptian Copt named Raymond Lakah, issued a craven and Orwellian statement offering LeFranc's head as a gesture of ''respect for the intimate beliefs and convictions of every individual." But the France Soir staff defended their decision to publish the drawings in a stalwart editorial. ''The best way to fight against censorship is to prevent censorship from happening," they wrote. ''A fundamental principle guaranteeing democracy and secular society is under threat. To say nothing is to retreat."Across the continent, nearly two dozen other newspapers have joined in defending that principle. While Islamist clerics proclaim an ''international day of anger" or declare that ''the war has begun," leading publications in Norway, France, Italy, Spain, Holland, Germany, Switzerland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic have reprinted the Danish cartoons. But there has been no comparable show of backbone in America, where (as of Friday) only the New York Sun has had the fortitude to the run some of the drawings.Make no mistake: This story is not going away, and neither is the Islamofascist threat. The freedom of speech we take for granted is under attack, and it will vanish if it is not bravely defended. Today the censors may be coming for some unfunny Mohammed cartoons, but tomorrow it is your words and ideas they will silence. Like it or not, we are all Danes now.Jeff Jacoby's e-mail address is jacoby@globe.com. © Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velvet Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 "The same is true of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Mormons: They don't lash out in violence when their religious sensibilities are offended"Radical Christians do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im going home Donny Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 Printing these pictures just seems so childish to me. I see they were making points about Freedom of speech...but wtf...they also had the freedom to decide not to agitate a complicated and delicate situation. I would think that much more valuable ideas could be printed via freedom of speech that might go towards expanding harmony rather than starting cock fights.?just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phorbesie Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 the article generalizes more than a few times however, burning embassies is inexcusable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdy Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 when it boils down to it, if you wanna dance.. dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
payce-ley Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 I agree burning embassies is out of handbut mainly, I thought the cartoons weren't funny at all and seemed intended as nothing but a dig at muslims... muslims have been experiencing one hell of a lot of racism and unfounded judgements for the past 5 years... all that wrongful accusation had to boil over some timeif Al-Jazeera had've printed the same cartoons with Jesus as the subject there would've been violence on the streets of america... only difference would've been a lot more asses getting kicked instead of property Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Evil_Mouse Posted February 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 I think you're probably right, payce; I hear now that people are using this to bolster conspiracy theories against Israel, that they'd been behind these cartoons to around people's ire about Hamas taking the Palestinian election.Hamfisted all around, in a word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 if Al-Jazeera had've printed the same cartoons with Jesus as the subject there would've been violence on the streets of america... only difference would've been a lot more asses getting kicked instead of propertyDo you really think so? Seems pretty much a given that if you are a christian in North America then you will have to put up with pretty constant ribbing in the media. It sometimes amazes me the things people will say about christians that if it was said about muslims would be branded racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
payce-ley Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 (edited) ribbing is one thing... I honestly couldn't find anything except meanheartedness conveyed in these cartoons though... they just feel coldif it was Muhammed chasing butterflies or something maybe I'd feel differentbut as I say, I don't think it was just the cartoons... Muslims have just undergone 5 years of being accused of not being able to govern themselves, being violent killers and haters of "freedom" and just about everything else under the sun that stinks... personally just not that suprised they snappedone thing to dis a man, another to dis his god Edited February 7, 2006 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 ribbing is one thing... I honestly couldn't find anything except meanheartedness conveyed in these cartoons though... they just feel coldDoes anyone have a good link to the cartoons? I saw the one on wikipedia but I can't read the text. They *look* like political-style cartoons. I'd have to do some research but I'd imagine there might have been some nasty political cartoons about the Catholic church around the time that priest abuse was getting major noise a few years ago.but as I say, I don't think it was just the cartoons... Muslims have just undergone 5 years of being accused of not being able to govern themselves, being violent killers and haters of "freedom" and just about everything else under the sun that stinks... personally just not that suprised they snappedAnd aren't they just proving the accusers' point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
payce-ley Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 (edited) you try acting like it don't bother you, which I think they've done extremely well for all this time... then something like dissin Muhammed pushes you over the edge... not sure it proves any point beyond you're human (and generally of above average tolerance)will dig up those cartoons for you in a minute eta: thought I saw them off a link on either kottke.org or waxy.org, which seems to have since been removed... was going to bookmark it but was so unimpressed I didn't bother... will look again a little later in the day as work can't wait right now Edited February 7, 2006 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcO Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 when meanheartedness is thrown our way, personally, we are supposed to try to rise above it and maintain our dignity. It is not acceptable to react with violence over something so ultimately meaningless as a religious slur. Surely the power of one's faith allows people to rise above mere faith-baiting.While I wish these hot buttons had never been pushed, freedom of speech trumps religious sensitivities everytime.At this point, I am not even sure the spread of protests has much to do with the cartoons themselves anymore so much as they have to do with the momentum of an outrage that transcends borders and politics.I wonder when a Canadian media outlet will pick up the cartoons? This is an historic shift in global sensibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradm Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 I wonder when a Canadian media outlet will pick up the cartoons? I'm not sure a Canadian media outlet would be allowed (legally) to run them, as they might qualify as "hate speech".Aloha,Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 I typed "religious political cartoons" into Google and found these three on the first page. They don't offend me but I'm not a Catholic or a born again Christian. These aren't going to convince a muslim to stop protesting but I wanted to illustrate my point above about meanheartedness in "western cartoons" directed towards other religions. Ultimately I realize logic has no place here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothedShredder Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 What are China and Russia going to do? My global paranoia is way up right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deeps Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 This is a historic shift in global sensibilities.Not really sure if these "protests" mark a shift in sensibilities as much as they expose the lack of sensibility within persons devoutly religious.When you've got your head buried in your book of faith, you will find salvation and peace, but turn the page and you are mired in the use of violence to solve your problems, and after the blood of those opposed to your book's purveying moral is spilt there is much rejoicing.A truly backward message indeed. if Al-Jazeera had've printed the same cartoons with Jesus as the subject there would've been violence on the streets of America... only difference would've been a lot more asses getting kicked instead of propertyNot likely .... Christians have primarily lived under the flag of democracy. They have been taught that when they lift their head from the good book and read the headlines that the headlines and the rights of the individual to write them usurps the rights of preservation and protection of the christian dogma and deities.People of faith, all faith from Nihilsm to Monotheistic religions have, under democratic rule, been told to cherish the fact that they can practice their religion at all. By proxy those in all walks of society have been made seriously aware that they too are town criers on topics that are subject to scrutiny within and outside of their immediate bretheren, always; the only caveat being that they are not allowed to directly incite violence on one another through their message.The West is quite well along the democracy road and Western Europe even farther, we are not so stuck as to take up arms in the streets when we are offended. Prime example being the US citizens opposed to GWB not assinating him. Kennedy got it, Lincoln got it, but we're just gonna wait GWB out because we don't like the turmoil of gun play and revolution. It's nice to be able to do what you want and shooting someone is a step backward for that. I say this with nervous tension though because it only takes one moron with ammo to turn it around and there are plenty of guns :crazy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deeps Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 (edited) The comics are on page ...... Depictions of Mohammed Edited February 7, 2006 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Derka! Derka! Mohammed! Jihad! Maybe we should call in these guys to take care of the situation: America...America... America, FUCK YEAH! Coming again, to save the mother fucking day yeah, America, FUCK YEAH! Freedom is the only way yeah, Terrorist your game is through cause now you have to answer too, America, FUCK YEAH! So lick my butt, and suck on my balls, America, FUCK YEAH! What you going to do when we come for you now, it’s the dream that we all share; it’s the hope for tomorrow FUCK YEAH! McDonalds, FUCK YEAH! Wal-Mart, FUCK YEAH! The Gap, FUCK YEAH! Baseball, FUCK YEAH! NFL, FUCK, YEAH! Rock and roll, FUCK YEAH! The Internet, FUCK YEAH! Slavery, FUCK YEAH! FUCK YEAH! Starbucks, FUCK YEAH! Disney world, FUCK YEAH! Porno, FUCK YEAH! Valium, FUCK YEAH! Reeboks, FUCK YEAH! Fake Tits, FUCK YEAH! Sushi, FUCK YEAH! Taco Bell, FUCK YEAH! Rodeos, FUCK YEAH! Bed bath and beyond (Fuck yeah, Fuck yeah) Liberty, FUCK YEAH! White Slips, FUCK YEAH! The Alamo, FUCK YEAH! Band-aids, FUCK YEAH! Las Vegas, FUCK YEAH! Christmas, FUCK YEAH! Immigrants, FUCK YEAH! Popeye, FUCK YEAH! Democrats, FUCK YEAH! Republicans (republicans) (fuck yeah, fuck yeah) Sportsmanship Books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaggerLee Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 I'm with Payce-ley, this incident was just the spark that Muslims needed to stir a reaction after years of being poorly represented in Western media. You can't look at it as a reaction to just the cartoons.Something that always bothers me is the way these things get reported and recorded in history. Other people's struggles are often seen as necessary or positive even when violence is used as a means in the movement. Think of Rodney King or the IRA for example. When Muslims are involved in violent protest it's terrorism or Islamo-fascism. Rarely are the valid concerns behind Muslim protest ever discussed. The coverage of this cartoon incident is one of the best examples of this kind of poor representation. I think the issue is tied with race as well as religion. I would say it is fair to compare this situation to many of the race riots in North America that were sparked by specific incidents but were products of years of marginalization. I think it's unfair to paint Muslims as perennially violent people as if Westerners are so much better. All we need to spark a violent riot in Canada is a hockey game. To me this seems much more trivial and unjustified than the Muslim reaction to these cartoons. It's true that Western Christians don't usually react to criticism of their religion with widespread violent protest, but as Deeps pointed out, most of those folks live in democratic countries where violent protest has been replaced for the most part by non-violent protest and access to media and government. This didn't happen overnight, and Western societies have lots of scars from violent social change in the past. Many Muslims live in countries where they have restricted access to their own media and government, and have fewer options for making their voices heard. Their options for making their voices heard on an international level are even more restricted.Don't get me wrong, I'm a pacifist and I don't believe violence is a desirable method of social change, but the hipocracy of Westerners that insinuate that whole peoples are somehow more prone to violence than they are really irks me. As Utah says (paraphrased), "the long memory is the most radical idea in America." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Something that always bothers me is the way these things get reported and recorded in history. Other people's struggles are often seen as necessary or positive even when violence is used as a means in the movement. Think of Rodney King or the IRA for example.I never said anything like this. I loathe the IRA. And I don't know what positive came out of the Rodney King riots.I am really, really repulsed by violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothedShredder Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.M.G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phorbesie Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 i think stagger lee has made some good points.but check out this article below! while i think that this approach is so much better than burning shit and killing people, it doesn't show much tolerance for other people's religions now does it? Iran daily holds contest for Holocaust cartoonsIran's best-selling newspaper has launched a competition to find the best cartoon about the Holocaust in retaliation for the publication in many European countries of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad.The Brussels-based Conference of European Rabbis (CER) denounced the idea and urged the Muslim world to do likewise.The Anti-Defamation League, which fights anti-semitism, described the competition as "deliberately inflammatory."The Iranian daily Hamshahri said the contest was designed to test the boundaries of free speech -- the reason given by many European newspapers for publishing the cartoons of the Prophet."Does Western free speech allow working on issues like America and Israel's crimes or an incident like the Holocaust or is this freedom of speech only good for insulting the holy values of divine religions?" the paper asked.Davoud Kazemi, who is in charge of the contest, told Reuters that each of the 12 winners would have their cartoons published and receive two gold coins (worth about $140 each) as a prize.In Paris, CER President Joseph Sitruk, who is also Chief Rabbi of France, said: "The Iranian regime has plummeted to new depths if it regards the deaths of six million Jews as a matter for humor or to score cheap political points."Sadly, we are not surprised by this action," he said, recalling Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's calls last year for Israel to be "wiped off the map" and his dismissal of the Holocaust as a myth.In a statement issued by the CER, which represents chief rabbis from over 40 European countries, Sitruk said the Iranian government menaced Jews and the whole international community.Sitruk noted that European religious leaders had condemned the publication of images likely to offend Muslim feelings."This is a test for the Muslim world to react immediately to condemn their own co-religionists in Iran for such obscene behavior as we condemned those who sought to insult them," he said.Iranian protesters hurled petrol bombs and stones at the Danish Embassy in Tehran for a second successive day on Tuesday and Tehran announced it had cut all trade ties with Denmark.A Danish newspaper published the cartoons in September, and newspapers in Norway and a dozen other countries reprinted them last month, citing the need to defend freedom of speech.A former Iranian parliamentarian argued that freedom of speech should also apply to those who questioned the Holocaust."Why do you make fuss or shout if a country or the head of a government expresses his doubt about the Holocaust? Why do you lie about the existence of freedom of speech in your countries?" the conservative Resalat newspaper on Tuesday quoted Ali Akbar Mohtashamipour as telling a gathering at Tehran University.Arieh O'Sullivan, spokesman of the Anti-Defamation League's Israel office, said it was committed to free speech and a free press but that did not mean a license to foster hatred."What bothers us this incident has been used by the Arab world basically as an excuse to stick it to the Jews," he said."Iran is doing a dare to see how free the press is in Europe. This is deliberately inflammatory," O'Sullivan said, accusing newspapers in the Arab and Muslim world of frequently running cartoons of Jews that recalled Nazi propaganda.(Additional reporting by Tom Heneghan in Paris and Allyn Fisher-Ilan in Jerusalem) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
payce-ley Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 (edited) Iran's in a really interesting state right now, kind of amusing almost... their leader represents about 10% of the population and is way conservative muslim... he ran on certain middle of the road platforms then once he won became a sort of "and I hereby decree there shall no longer be the eating of codfish on Tuesdays" ruler... I'm tuning in to the country a lot right now just to hear the things said that no other country would dare say... buddy's either utterly crazy or finds himself as funny as I do(I only find it amusing as most political thinkers believe the current leader will be overthrown without question, so long as the country isn't attacked while he's in power... which would band the population behind him... which would obviously be very bad) Edited February 7, 2006 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothedShredder Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Rook to Knight 4: Check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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