Angry people

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

This has been going on for a while now; I hope it's nothing that will escalate further. It certainly doesn't help that newspapers in places like Jordan went and reprinted those cartoons.

Lebanese protesters torch Danish embassy.

This strikes me as classic Wahhabi iconoclasm, really - the same theology led to the Wahhabis destroying the Tomb of the Prophet in the 18th c., and the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan a few years back. I do so wish that Islam weren't so conflated, though, with this orthodox and historically narrow slice of Saudi Sunni theology, just as I wish that Christianity weren't associated with the rigid Catholicism of the Vatican and the evangelicalism of Colorado Springs.

But then I think, isn't that a bit like begging of the beligerents, "Can't we all just... get along?"

[YearsAlongTheSea]

.......the evangelicalism of Colorado Springs.

And Texas, namely Texas.

[StoneMtn]

Angry People

Now, there's a good name for a band.

[Birdy]

oh, and indiana! don't forget the bible belt. i love the I-80 that skims east to west across northern indiana with all of it's crazy christian billboards.

and texas, mainly the panhandle and it's dry counties.. backwards is an understatement in some of those parts.

[shitidiot]

what about Alabama and Arkansas.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Colorado Springs stands out because it's even referred to as the Vatican of the evangelical world by evangelicals themselves - it has the highest concentration of conservative Protestant parachurch groups anywhere in the States. That said - yes, Bible Belt - Southern Baptists are the largest Protestant denomination in the US, and (imo) the most authoritarian (see their position of the status of women, needing formally to submit to husbands, not to mention their historical origins, which centred largely on the defence of slavery around the Civil War).

[questcequecest?]

and in related news: Christian Wrestlers Fight for Bible Belt

"Actually, we're more violent than secular wrestlers because we don't seem to feel it like they do.

The bumps and bruises that we take in the ring - I think God takes them and puts them on His own back."

[Im going home Donny]

and in related news: Christian Wrestlers Fight for Bible Belt

EEEEK.....half a bottle of wine down and this is what I see...freaky legumes man.

"Actually, we're more violent than secular wrestlers because we don't seem to feel it like they do.

The bumps and bruises that we take in the ring - I think God takes them and puts them on His own back."

[Im going home Donny]

ooops my quoting abilities are soo sloppy...nail me to the cross and stop me from posting when I'm buzzing sunday style....lol...

[Alexis]

so...maybe this has an obvious answer, but what does everyone think about the danes reprinting the cartoons that have upset the islamists so?

[shitidiot]

no comment

[Im going home Donny]

not sure this lands here properly...I'm kinda fuzzy this sunday afternoon but I'm reading an interesting book about conflict and think mabey others might find this snip it interesting...mabey not but hey I'm not too worried about it....The truely great person dwells on what is real, and not what is on the surface-Lao Tzo

"Neither power- of the coercive sort at least - nor legal systems have been able to reduce the ammont of conflict in the world.

Sometimes, resorting to these options actually makes things worse, because of thier intrinsically advarsarial nature. Often, they fail to address the underlying needs of human beings and thier collectives for identity, security, belonging and self worth. We sorely need a structure that can address these more fundamental aspects of life. We need a process that can permit the human essentials to shine through.

During the past 50 years or so, Western practitioners have been looking for more effective ways to manage conflict. The path has not been an easy one, for we are dealing with complex creatures: human beings. Life in community demonstrates an inescapable tension between a desire for peace and stability, and the struggle for justice and the need for change.

Our ongoing journey takes us into the crucible of the often-intense interactions between people as they seek to claim thier place of honor as earth's citizens.

These most deeply felt conflicts are best met, we are discovering, by the power of human dialogue and a commitment to search for the meaning behind the hostility.

Just human dialogue? Yes, indeed, so it behooves us to get a lot better at it! More than 20 years ago, when I first started to engage in Peace studies and nuclear weapons had allready been long established as the preferred defense strategy, I asked myself the question, " Is there any alternative, since these weapons cannot be used without threatening the destruction of the entire globe and all its creatures?" The answer I finnally arrived at was, "The power of dialogue!"

What a contrast! The only real answer to the absolute power to destroy us all is something that appears almost puny - our human ability to communicate. It is in managing our conflicts that communication to this vital task that our spirits will enable us to endure and to thrive."

- Dr.Elinor D.U.Powell

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

That's a great quote, Howler (oops - ). Imagine if people actually talked with and listened to one another [edit: sheesh, the irony :blush:].

One of the theorists I got steeped in a few years back was Jurgen Habermas, who makes a further distinction between communication oriented to coercion and communication oriented to understanding. The latter, obviously, is the much more fragile, because it depends not only on the good will of all involved, but also on getting past patterns of distorted communication, which can come from insecurities that are both social and psychological. I worry when I see those social and psychological insecurities going hand-in-hand, as seems to be the case with riots like this.

Personally, I think the decision to keep reprinting these cartoons was insensitive, stubborn, and just stupid; it highlights the insecurities of modern Europeans when faced with a worldview that they seem to be making no effort to understand. That effort alone would probably go a long way to letting the offended parties feel like they're capable of being heard, and don't need to crack people over the head to do so. Not like that kind of thing is going to go away in any big hurry, but every little step is important. Some day, I'd hope, the people would tell their agitators to go fuck themselves so they can get on with their lives.

Edited February 5, 2006 by Guest
Short-term memory affliction

[Birdy]

but what about "bring on the noise, i say"?

edit to add: if i was the editor i'd vote no to reprint out of respect for a situation gone array, but in the back of my mind i'd be willing to argue a censorship angle.

Edited February 5, 2006 by Guest

[Im going home Donny]

haha..I was wondering...Alexis is the cutie with the button nose and possibly much higher IQ than me....shes a soOn biatch.

Howler-me-am the cutie with the big yet apparrently cute nose whos IQ is slightly stunted by age and drug use...I'm in your backyard...deliverer of all things mapped and am a biatch too

mabey i have the wrong mouse here. :blush:

Edited February 5, 2006 by Guest

[Calamity Jane]

mabey i have the wrong mouse here. :blush:

Naw, Juls...you got him right. And I can vouch he wasn't even inta the Sunday afternoon 'sauce'...as he said "short term memory affliction." And his memory used to be better than mine...now they're both shot.

Thank God we got kids to take care of us when it gets really bad!!! :grin:

and the map ROCKS and is getting tons of use! thanks you button-nosed cutie!

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

:blush: - yeah, sorry about that, J, you cute-nosed biatch - I jumped back down the memory hole to patch that one up....

Some sluggish Sunday it's been....

[MarcO]

this whole sad scenario has at least shone the light on a number of questions:

- why are some Muslims so quick to resort to violent protests and calls for beheadings? they could use a spliff and some Jack Johnson CDs to just chill the fuck out.

- why are some Westerners such jerks? Sure they enjoy the freedom to produce any image they so desire. They also have the latitude to not do so. they should eat some mushrooms and check out some late-Brent Mydland period Grateful Dead and not be so obnoxious.

- protests over these comics seem most dangerous in those very Muslim-state countries where these freedoms of expression are largely forbidden, and where the state sanctioned press, such as it is, routinely rail against the Jewish state of Israel, including degrading holy imagery central to Judaism (Star of David etc). Where do they get the moral authority to protest the freedom of another country's press while suppressing it's very own, and actively doing exactly what it is they are so opposed to? they need to pack up that bong and check out some late 1960's/early 1970's Pink Floyd and feel good about themselves.

Ah, no time to think about these things, I am offended so you must die!

can I get off this planet now?

[Davey Boy 2.0]

can I get off this planet now?

i'd recommend a couple of california sunshines, some "Greyfolded" (with headphones), 3-D glasses in a darkened romm with a strobe light and a comfy chair

that should at least get you floating above the floor

[Birdy]

Where do they get the moral authority to protest the freedom of another country's press while suppressing it's very own, and actively doing exactly what it is they are so opposed to?

the heart of the issue.

[CyberHippie]

Good old Wiki, they some the whole thing up nicely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy

Man the world is in a rough state these days, she's hurtin. Better make your peace now, it only takes one psycho with a nuke...

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Thanks for the link, CH (geez are ever people quick to keep Wiki up to speed).

What keeps striking me about this thing is that the fury comes out of a stated theological iconoclasm that would prevent any idolatry toward Muhammad (he is never to be worshipped in Islam; in the most abstract terms, he was a secretary conferred with prophetic status, and is nothing like what most Christians think Jesus to be); what all this rioting seems to do, though, is reinforce that very idolatry by making him, a human, more than human, a being of a different order than any other human.

As I understand it, Islamic iconoclasm follows the same sort of logic as the 2nd Commandment - to make no images of the divine, because the divine is beyond all images - but ratchets it up further by disallowing images of all creatures (which is where the art of the arabesque comes from - I mean, what else are you going to draw if you can't draw people or animals?); Timouse told me of having seen a little toy horse smashed to pieces at customs coming into Saudi Arabia out of the same logic. So do people get worked up when they see a picture of anybody printed in the newspaper?

It's all fucked up. I think MarcO has the perfect answer .

[deranger]

I was thinking about how stupid the papers that re-printed it were (not to mention the initial Dane paper) and how could they not see that it would offend Muslims (especially reprinting it...). Maybe could have been more culturally sensitive?

But then MarcO made an excellent point regarding the same behavior of those Muslims who seem to think its fine desecrating other religious symbols (those Muslims does not mean EVERY Muslim). Are the same Muslims who are pissed, the ones who are happy to desecrate other religous icons? Or is it fair to say it's only a few, and those that are mad have a legitimate claim to be mad? Can you say one-way street? Anyway, let's all get worked up about being offended by someone or something. I pick Cherryl Gallant and her retarded ilk.

[Davey Boy 2.0]

They knew exactly what they were doing in reprinting it; knew who and roughly to what extent it would piss off- they were making a point about freedom of speech

on the other hand the sales of tins of Danish butter cookies in the middle east is in a bit of a spiral

[MarcO]

I underestimated the significance of this whole scenario as it unfolded in real time but it seems to me this could be a turning point in the whole Muslim World v. Western World dilemma that has been simmering away for quite some contemporary time now (I realize this is an age-old problem but let's take the here and now, for now....).

Of course, I am loathe to paint the entire global Muslim community with one broad stroke. Just as I get frustrated with the Pat Robertsons of the world, neither do I think he represents all Evangelical Christians, whose opinions and outlooks I almost completley disagree with, and whose influence in the Western politic I would hope is minimized by all rational humanistic liberal thinkers.

At least one person is dead now as a result of the loosely organized reaction to this affront to the Muslim sensibility.

And yet, there seem to be few organized protests to the reality of suicide bombers killing thousands of innocent human beings every year in some quasi-poitical movement that only serves to keep that other 99% of thoughtful, sensitive Muslims who are content to - in this situation - simply employ peaceful economic protests afraid to speak out against the Muslim miltitants.