Deeps Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Question: Pat, could you tell us your opinion about Kenny G - it appears you were quoted as being less than enthusiastic about him and his music. I would say that most of the serious music listeners in the world would not find your opinion surprising or unlikely - but you were vocal about it for the first time. You are generally supportive of other musicians it seems. Pat's Answer: Kenny G is not a musician I really had much of an opinion about at all until recently. There was not much about the way he played that interested me one way or the other either live or on records. I first heard him a number of years ago playing as a sideman with Jeff Lorber when they opened a concert for my band. My impression was that he was someone who had spent a fair amount of time listening to the more pop oriented sax players of that time, like Grover Washington or David Sanborn, but was not really an advanced player, even in that style. He had major rhythmic problems and his harmonic and melodic vocabulary was extremely limited, mostly to pentatonic based and blues-lick derived patterns, and he basically exhibited only a rudimentary understanding of how to function as a professional soloist in an ensemble - Lorber was basically playing him off the bandstand in terms of actual music. But he did show a knack for connecting to the basest impulses of the large crowd by deploying his two or three most effective licks (holding long notes and playing fast runs - never mind that there were lots of harmonic clams in them) at the key moments to elicit a powerful crowd reaction (over and over again). The other main thing I noticed was that he also, as he does to this day, played horribly out of tune - consistently sharp. Of course, I am aware of what he has played since, the success it has had, and the controversy that has surrounded him among musicians and serious listeners. This controversy seems to be largely fueled by the fact that he sells an enormous amount of records while not being anywhere near a really great player in relation to the standards that have been set on his instrument over the past sixty or seventy years. And honestly, there is no small amount of envy involved from musicians who see one of their fellow players doing so well financially, especially when so many of them who are far superior as improvisors and musicians in general have trouble just making a living. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of sax players around the world who are simply better improvising musicians than Kenny G on his chosen instruments. It would really surprise me if even he disagreed with that statement. Having said that, it has gotten me to thinking lately why so many jazz musicians (myself included, given the right "bait" of a question, as I will explain later) and audiences have gone so far as to say that what he is playing is not even jazz at all. Stepping back for a minute, if we examine the way he plays, especially if one can remove the actual improvising from the often mundane background environment that it is delivered in, we see that his saxophone style is in fact clearly in the tradition of the kind of playing that most reasonably objective listeners WOULD normally quantify as being jazz. It's just that as jazz or even as music in a general sense, with these standards in mind, it is simply not up to the level of playing that we historically associate with professional improvising musicians. So, lately I have been advocating that we go ahead and just include it under the word jazz - since pretty much of the rest of the world OUTSIDE of the jazz community does anyway - and let the chips fall where they may. And after all, why he should be judged by any other standard , why he should be exempt from that that all other serious musicians on his instrument are judged by if they attempt to use their abilities in an improvisational context playing with a rhythm section as he does? He SHOULD be compared to John Coltrane or Wayne Shorter, for instance, on his abilities (or lack thereof) to play the soprano saxophone and his success (or lack thereof) at finding a way to deploy that instrument in an ensemble in order to accurately gauge his abilities and put them in the context of his instrument's legacy and potential. As a composer of even eighth note based music, he SHOULD be compared to Herbie Hancock, Horace Silver or even Grover Washington. Suffice it to say, on all above counts, at this point in his development, he wouldn't fare well. But, like I said at the top, this relatively benign view was all "until recently". Not long ago, Kenny G put out a recording where he overdubbed himself on top of a 30+ year old Louis Armstrong record, the track "What a Wonderful World". With this single move, Kenny G became one of the few people on earth I can say that I really can't use at all - as a man, for his incredible arrogance to even consider such a thing, and as a musician, for presuming to share the stage with the single most important figure in our music. This type of musical necrophilia - the technique of overdubbing on the preexisting tracks of already dead performers - was weird when Natalie Cole did it with her dad on "Unforgettable" a few years ago, but it was her dad. When Tony Bennett did it with Billie Holiday it was bizarre, but we are talking about two of the greatest singers of the 20th century who were on roughly the same level of artistic accomplishment. When Larry Coryell presumed to overdub himself on top of a Wes Montgomery track, I lost a lot of the respect that I ever had for him - and I have to seriously question the fact that I did have respect for someone who could turn out to have such unbelievably bad taste and be that disrespectful to one of my personal heroes. But when Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I would not have imagined possible. He, in one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, shit all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician. By disrespecting Louis, his legacy and by default , everyone who has ever tried to do something positive with improvised music and what it can be, Kenny G has created a new low point in modern culture - something that we all should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of. We ignore this, "let it slide", at our own peril. His callous disregard for the larger issues of what this crass gesture implies is exacerbated by the fact that the only reason he possibly have for doing something this inherently wrong (on both human and musical terms) was for the record sales and the money it would bring. Since that record came out - in protest, as insignificant as it may be, I encourage everyone to boycott Kenny G recordings, concerts and anything he is associated with. If asked about Kenny G, I will diss him and his music with the same passion that is in evidence in this little essay. Normally, I feel that musicians all have a hard enough time, regardless of their level, just trying to play good and don't really benefit from public criticism, particularly from their fellow players. but, this is different. There ARE some things that are sacred - and amongst any musician that has ever attempted to address jazz at even the most basic of levels, Louis Armstrong and his music is hallowed ground. To ignore this trespass is to agree that NOTHING any musician has attempted to do with their life in music has any intrinsic value - and I refuse to do that. (I am also amazed that there HASN'T already been an outcry against this among music critics - where ARE they on this??!?!?!?!, magazines, etc.). Everything I said here is exactly the same as what I would say to Gorelick if I ever saw him in person. and if I ever DO see him anywhere, at any function - he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a guitar wrapped around his head.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bouche Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 I read this a few years ago. Was this real or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
\/\/illy Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 But when Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fuÇked up playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I would not have imagined possible. He, in one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, sh!t all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician.Beautiful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Evil_Mouse Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Yup; I thought Pat himself was getting a bit stuck-up and wanky with this dissing of another musician until I read about that bit of sacrilege. Overlaying yourself on top of anything Armstrong recorded, let alone What a Wonderful World, is just obscene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo Sanchez Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 And honestly, there is no small amount of envy involved from musicians who see one of their fellow players doing so well financially, especially when so many of them who are far superior as improvisors and musicians ingeneral have trouble just making a living.Boo fucking hoo Pat. For the most part it is certainly not the best players making the money. Just ask Alan Holdsworth what he thinks of Pat Metheny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWeeJig Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 I also read this a while back and got quite a laugh out of it actually. Even if it isn't true it's still a worthwhile read. Besides, you shouldn't let the truth get in the way of a good laugh. Take the Richard Gere/Hamster incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 This type of musical necrophilia - the technique ofoverdubbing on the preexisting tracks of already deadperformers - was weird when Natalie Cole did it with herdad on "Unforgettable" a few years ago, but it was her dad.When Tony Bennett did it with Billie Holiday it was bizarre,but we are talking about two of the greatest singers of the20th century who were on roughly the same level of artisticaccomplishment. When Larry Coryell presumed to overdubhimself on top of a Wes Montgomery track, I lost a lot ofthe respect that I ever had for him - and I have toseriously question the fact that I did have respect forsomeone who could turn out to have such unbelievably badtaste and be that disrespectful to one of my personalheroes.I swear I seen Colin James pull this off also, pretty sure it was some prominent blues musician, but fortunatley, I can't remember with who. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Oh, I forgot to post this also...I read this a few years ago. Was this real or what?I can't say for sure if it is real, but, (for what its worth) VH1's website claim Pat has "Declared War" on Kenny G.They provide a link to his website also.(June 14 2000)Metheny said on his Web site that he told the kids "not to get confused by the sometimes overwhelming volume of music that falls under the jazz umbrella ... I went on to say that I think, for instance, 'Kenny G plays the dumbest music on the planet' - something that all 8- to 11-year [old] kids on the planet already intrinsically know." http://www.vh1.com/artists/news/1436591/06142000/g_kenny.jhtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 I broke this one years ago back when northernheads was still around as schlock as it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimafleck: the living legend. Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 pat matheny and his sissy smooth jazz can suck my ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattm Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Since that record came out - in protest, as insignificant asit may be, I encourage everyone to boycott Kenny Grecordings, concerts and anything he is associated with. Ifasked about Kenny G, I will diss him and his music with thesame passion that is in evidence in this little essay.Cool, I've boycotted him my whole life and don't really have any plans to change that now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimafleck: the living legend. Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 (edited) whatever,in the grand scheme of things, pat metheny is a weird looking music snob that spent a lifetime making music for music snobs. His fans are mostly psycologists that live in the burbs and think they know somthing about jazz and say things like "that was the most tasteful solo i've ever heard".kenny g however, has slept with a bunch of super models and has discovered how to make a room full of beautiful women cream their panties while he plays the sax (the sexiest instrument of them all). kenny g wins. Edited March 3, 2006 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Evil_Mouse Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 That's hilarious . Thanks for putting it that way. It seems we have a case of a total wanker vs. a total slut. I don't know if we have a winner, given the disparity of categories, but, in the end, at least we have more clearly defined categories . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimoe Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 I've been a casual fan of Pat's since my uncle turned me on to Offramp in the early 80's. However, every time Metheny uses a vocalist in his songs or plugs into a synclaviar, Kenny G comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chameleon Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 (edited) Way to go Pat, sock it to Kenny G's lame smooth ass. Altho I agree, some of Metheny's chorused out recording can venture into the too smooth to be good catagory. And unless we're tlaking yacht Rock too smooth is a bad thing. Funny story: In my second year of University studying Jazz at YorkU, we had to choose a jazz tune to transcribe. So the teacher went around the class and us to call out what tune we chose for approval. When it came to this one dude (newer immigrant guy, who hopefully knew no better), he said proudly "Kenny G- Breahless"...A hush filled the classroom and the teahcer said "That's not acceptable, pick again, that's not jazz!" and the guys was like "but..but..but". Theacher: "I'll explain the Kenny G factor to you later, it's one jazz's dark little secrets, like getting herpes with a one night stand." Absolute gold. I laughed so hard I cried! Edited March 3, 2006 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Evil_Mouse Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 I've been a casual fan of Pat's since my uncle turned me on to Offramp in the early 80's. However, every time Metheny uses a vocalist in his songs or plugs into a synclaviar, Kenny G comes to mind. ! Yes, Pat's cheese factor can get a little intense sometimes; this has always kept me from being a full-on fan, despite my respect for a lot of his music (tunes like "Are You Going with Me" and "Third Wind" still blow my mind). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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