the middle east is going even more apeshit

[guigsy]

buckle up.

[afro poppa]

It's not good over there. I hope my family in Israel stays safe and my cousins in the Israeli Army stay strong and brave.

[ollie]

Now that Canadian citizens are being killed in Lebanon, does Canada continue to support Israel? This situation is fucked and make's my head hurt.

I guess what I find strange is the lack of outcry about the Canadian deaths. I imagine if the USA had killed 7 of our citizens that the anti-American rhetoric would be through the roof.

Has Harper spoken about this incident?

[afro poppa]

It is an extremely tough situation. It is much more than just "they kidnapped our people, now lets bomb them", groups like Hezbollah have been trying to deny Israel's right to exist as a peaceful nation for many years. Israel is trying to send a message that they will not go down without a fight. This crisis is just another page in the long long long history of hatred and violence in the middle-east.

As far as Canadians being killed is concerned, I get upset when I read about anyone dying, Canadian, Israeli, Lebanese, American whatever. I don't think Canada should change it's "official position" on Israel. But then again, I am bias towards Israel...

peace to the middle east

[timouse]

an article by Robert Fisk.

Fisk is a British national and long time middle east correspondent for the Independent, the Guardian, and BBC.

[afro poppa]

Some of those comments on that article are the pretty anti-semitic.

Edited July 17, 2006 by Guest

[ollie]

As far as Canadians being killed is concerned, I get upset when I read about anyone dying, Canadian, Israeli, Lebanese, American whatever. I don't think Canada should change it's "official position" on Israel. But then again, I am bias towards Israel...

I agree that a death is a death but from a political perspective one nation (Israel) has acted in a deliberate way that has caused death to the citizens of another nation (Canada). At what point does Stephen Harper apply political pressure to Israel to prevent death to Canadian citizens in Lebanon?

I realize this is a very touchy subject to discuss on a message board and I appreciate your perspective. I'm really just asking questions at this point and don't mean to condemn Israel.

[StoneMtn]

You can't discount, though, that the U.S. likes to think of Israel as its own little stronghold in the Middle East (due to massive amounts of funding for military purposes); so you're really asking when "Steve" is going to stand up to his little friend down south.

[afro poppa]

As far as Canadians being killed is concerned' date=' I get upset when I read about anyone dying, Canadian, Israeli, Lebanese, American whatever. I don't think Canada should change it's "official position" on Israel. But then again, I am bias towards Israel...[/quote']

I agree that a death is a death but from a political perspective one nation (Israel) has acted in a deliberate way that has caused death to the citizens of another nation (Canada). At what point does Stephen Harper apply political pressure to Israel to prevent death to Canadian citizens in Lebanon?

I realize this is a very touchy subject to discuss on a message board and I appreciate your perspective. I'm really just asking questions at this point and don't mean to condemn Israel.

I feel like Stephen Harper will (along with everyone else) put pressure on both Lebanon to give back the kidnapped people and for Israel to stop the attacks. As well, I am certain that his number one priority would be to help Canadians first, and the rest of the world second...this will play out very interestingly in the next few weeks/months/years.

Sorry if I am seem to be rude/snappy/whatever, this whole situation is making me very uneasy.

[StoneMtn]

I haven't detected even the slightest "rudeness" or "snappiness" in your posts, Afro.

[afro poppa]

I haven't detected even the slightest "rudeness" or "snappiness" in your posts, Afro.

[Asparagus]

Semite

Fixed.

Edited July 17, 2006 by Guest

[afro poppa]

link broken??

[Deeps]

Some of those comments on that article are the pretty anti-semitic.

As in opposing the opinion of the Israeli government.

The article seems pretty on the money to me, and actually isn't unquestioning of the Israeli decisions, not an easy thing tofind in the media.

Israel got hit with a pebble and is now throwing bricks relentlessly at a Lebanese government that essentially has no say what Hezzbollah is doing.

It's like some group of independant anti-american assholes from Canada heading down and causing some shit in the US and then the states decides to start blowing up Mississauga and surrounding areas for a couple of days, and blaming the Canadian government.

Little counter productive don't you think?

[afro poppa]

Little counter productive don't you think?

Yes I do think that fighting and killing is counter-productive.

However, and while I respect what you gotta say from the bottom of my heart, I think your missing the big picture, on the surface the Israeli attacks are for what Hezbollah did, but really these attacks are rooted in years and years of fighting.

One of Hezbollah's main mission is to destroy Israel, and Israel knows this. I don't agree with the bombings of innocent people, I don't even agree with the bombings of guilty people but there are always two sides to every story.

Besides, I am not bad mouthing the article, everyone can have their opinion (to be honest, I can't tell which side Fisk takes, if any) but some of the comments on his article are very biased, one-sided, and even short sighted. It seems like when something like this happens, people forget all the history that led up to events as awful as this. I am not saying you Deeps, but some of those comments are quite anti-semetic...and to be honest, a comment that bashes the government of Israel can be understood as being anti-semetic.

EDIT TO ADD: By the comments I mean the ones that his readers write in afterwards...not Fisk's comments himself

Edited July 17, 2006 by Guest

[afro poppa]

Semite

Fixed.

not too sure what your trying to point out?

[Birdy]

and to be honest, a comment that bashes the government of Israel can be understood as being anti-semetic.

I have to disagree here. "government" is far too often confused with race/religion. one should be fully in the right to criticize the government of Israel without being considered anti-semetic. how else are they to be kept in check?

[afro poppa]

one should be fully in the right to criticize the government of Israel without being considered anti-semetic. how else are they to be kept in check?

Good point. Didn't look at it from the point of view.

Edited July 17, 2006 by Guest

[StoneMtn]

I actually don't agree that comments bashing Israel's government are anti-Semitic (even using the layperson's understanding of anti-Semitic as meaning Jew-hating).

I do not believe that as a Jewish person I have to agree with everything the Israeli government does, and I think it is fair to question them without being deemed anti-Jewish.

(I should say, I am at work, so I haven't read the article in question, and if there is language in there that is anti-Jewish, rather than anti-Israeli-government, then that is a different story.)

[ollie]

It seems like when something like this happens, people forget all the history that led up to events as awful as this.

I disagree. It seems to me that Israel is almost always given the benefit of the doubt in these incidents due to the history of the region. So that's why I wanted to look at the incident as isolated and point out that Canadians are being killed by the Israeli government. Any country other than Israel and I suspect there would be more of an uproar.

I am not taking sides here. Just having a tough time with the fact that Canadians have been killed and there has been no condemnation from our PM.

[Deeps]

Isn't the Israeli government building a huge wall and bombing places....they sound a little anti arabic to me.

I am completely tired of the term anti semetic.....it implies that to be semetic (read:Jewish views are valid) is righteous.

Not the case in my opinion, in fact any time you have anyone fighting on behalf of their religion you've got major issues and are not in any place to determine what is or is not anti-anything.

I just saw footage of an Israeli soldier in uniform praying...fucking backward....do they just skip over the parts about not killing people before the head back to the rocket launcher?

The hypocrasy and righteous tone of Israel is fully under my skin, no disrespect to you or any other jewish person because to be jewish is not to sympathize with the Israeli government, they are when applied to the entire populus of jews mutually exclusive in a lot of cases I'm sure.

There is very much a sect of the Israeli population bent on the destruction of Palestine aren't there?, not unlike the Hezbollah view of Israel? They are just as radical and just as ridiculously caught up in their self preservation and their religion (the root of all of these bullshit) that they can't see they are turning into evil remorseless people.

Neither side is right and siding with anyone of them as you did above, is a little strange from over here.

I don't have a religion though and thus have a very different view of all of this than you, as I know this hits a little closer to what you were taught was home.

[Deeps]

I think maybe righteous is too strong of a word above....I think maybe the media's tendancy to gloss over the aggression that the Israeli governement works by is what caused me to get fired up...I don't what the tone of the government is directly in all honesty.

Anyway,

I hope I'm not pissing anyone off here. Just as confused as the next kid.

[afro poppa]

Isn't the Israeli government building a huge wall and bombing places....they sound a little anti arabic to me.

Yes they are building a huge wall, yes it is anti-palestinian or arabic. Yes it is horrible.

I am completely tired of the term anti semetic.....it implies that to be semetic (read:Jewish views are valid) is righteous.

Gonna dissagree with that one. Maybe if you were Jewish and you've had people yell at you and call you a "kyke" or tell you "they won't Jew you out of your money" then maybe you would have a different opinion on that one. Or maybe if you've had Grandparents who were persecuted as children and beat up every day and forced to wear yellow stars you would think differently. Maybe some Jewish people think they are righteous, but that is a personal choice (some musicians think they are righteous too, I am sure) not a religious one. Sorry to go off on you, but I couldn't believe I read that.

Not the case in my opinion, in fact any time you have anyone fighting on behalf of their religion you've got major issues and are not in any place to determine what is or is not anti-anything.

While this may have religious under tones (and I feel like I may be contradicting myself here) they are fighting for the Jewish State, not the Jewish religion.

The hypocrasy and righteous tone of Israel is fully under my skin, no disrespect to you or any other jewish person because to be jewish is not to sympathize with the Israeli government, they are when applied to the entire populus of jews mutually exclusive in a lot of cases I'm sure.

What about the hypocrasy and righteous tone of Lebanon, Hezbollah, or Palestine? No disrespect taken but it looks like we are on totally opposite ends of the spectrum here...

There is very much a sect of the Israeli population bent on the destruction of Palestine aren't there?, not unlike the Hezbollah view of Israel?

You are exactly right.

Neither side is right and siding with anyone of them as you did above, is a little strange from over here.

If you had cousins fighting for Israel and lots of family and roots over there, you might want to take a side as well. Even with my bias, I am still praying that this ends quick and with very few casualties/injuries, especially my family.

Sorry I had to go off on ya Deeps, like you said, this does hit really close to home...

remind me to give you a big hug the next time I see you, as this ranting was nothing personal against you at all!!

EDIT TO ADD: not too sure why the quote thingy isn't working...

[Deeps]

The martyrdom that comes with a statement like "jewish state" is strange and is one of these attempts to right history where it went wrong. That never works, nor is it going to as we're seeing with Israel.

Why anyone would attempt to claim land as solely a jewish state when many of the world's religions were said to have been born there is beyond me.

You'd think if the jewish people only wanted the world to remember their attrocity sufferred and learn from it they'd want to declare Israel ... the land of all religions and acceptance, but that's not how it works, they want a place of their own and were organized enough to get it. Now the situation over there has displaced people and caused racial tension to escalate.

The irony is troubling to say the least.

It's also important to note that the jewish folk weren't the only people who were victims of genocide. Is anyone aware if any other culture that was a victim of genocide sought to have a state, or country awarded to them for their suffering? If so ... how did that turn out?

I don't feel you were going off on me there AP. We're just debating. Like I said I don't have a religion and am thankful I wasn't handed one...keeps things way simpler IMHO.

I hope your cousins remain safe, but I gotta hope that they'll find their way out and return to civilian life where allegiances aren't so steadfast and dogmatic, that aint no kind of freedom.

Peace.

Deeps

[Hal Johnson]

Well put Deeps.