the middle east is going even more apeshit

[Hal Johnson]

All kidding aside, this is a tremendous display of leadership.

The more I read this the more it bothers me. How about if he said something like, 'You killed seven of our citizens and we have thousands more there - stop the f'n bombing!!'

[Birdy]

i think everyone has the idea of stopping the f'in bombing in their heads right now. taking a public stance and what that stance is has the possibilities of creating havoc in a very bad way both abroad and in Canada... i'd rather he ride the diplomatic fence a little longer on this one. i'm sure hezbollah cells operate in every major city in Canada.

it is a tremendous display of leadership... and as popular as it is to hate Harper, i have to say he's pulled a few moves out of his hat recently that i actually admire. of course, for face value.

[Birdy]

I say he's just being opportunistic. The day before this, he kept saying how this was gonna be the "biggest rescue of Canadians in the history of Canada." You could see the glimmer in his eye when he said it too. In fact I believe he answered a question from the french media with this, even though the querry had nothing to do with it. So now that he gets to personally rescue 150 of them is absolute gravy for him and his stupid party. Gotta admit, it's a brilliant move though, cuz from now on he could rape little boys and most Canadians would still say, "Ya, but he rescued all those Canadians during the middle east crisis - I didnt see no Liberals do anything about the mid-east." If you dont believe me, just listen to Toronto radio when his terms up.

motive, or no motive. he still did it. why focus on the negative? people's lives were saved.

[ollie]

All kidding aside' date=' this is a tremendous display of leadership.

[/quote']

The more I read this the more it bothers me. How about if he said something like, 'You killed seven of our citizens and we have thousands more there - stop the f'n bombing!!'

Just calling it like I see it dude. The alternative was for him to fly home with a mostly empty jet. Given the relative proximity of Cyprus it's a decision he almost had to make but good for him for making that decision. This isn't the end of the situation for Harper. I'll still be watching his next moves closely. And I'll be the first to call him out when he does something I disagree with.

I also realize this is a bit of a photo op, hence my comment about a Conservative majority government.

Bottom line, it's the right thing to do. Maybe my bar is set so low for politicians that when one of them pulls a no-brainer I can't help but call it tremendous.

[Hal Johnson]

Bottom line, it's the right thing to do. Maybe my bar is set so low for politicians that when one of them pulls a no-brainer I can't help but call it tremendous.

:laugh: Its funny, cuz its true.

But thats what scares me. His entire campaign next time around will be based on this and the vast majority of our population will eat it up.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Naw, people will have completely forgotten that this ever happened (or where Lebanon is again).

[meggo]

sounds like he's going to need all the good press he can get... what a nightmare.

PMO wanted crisis kept under wraps, sources say

By DOUG SAUNDERS and MARK MACKINNON AND GLORIA GALLOWAY

From Thursday's Globe and Mail

Doug Saunders: E-mail | Read Bio | Latest Columns

Micromanagement by the Prime Minister's Office and a lack of resources in Lebanon contributed to the confusion and anguish at Beirut's port Wednesday as Canadians trying to flee Israeli bombardments watched boats chartered by other nations sail away, leaving them behind.

It is expected, ultimately, to be the largest removal of Canadian citizens from a crisis zone ever arranged by the federal government. But, as early as Sunday, there were complaints about delays in arranging ships to carry people to safety, as well as lineups and inaction at the Canadian embassy.

The perception of inaction was exacerbated by the lack of information flowing last week about Canadian efforts to organize a response.

In fact, Foreign Affairs staff realized last week that there was an emergency situation involving tens of thousands of Canadians brewing in Lebanon.

But federal sources say there was an edict handed down by Sandra Buckler, the Prime Minister's communications director, dictating that the situation was to be kept under wraps.

By Saturday, with Canadians desperate to reach safe ground, a task force was put together at Foreign Affairs to find ways to get people out.

Foreign Minister Peter MacKay also decided it was time to talk publicly about the scope of the situation confronting his department.

Two obstacles were blatantly obvious to everyone involved.

First, there were not enough people at the Beirut embassy to cope with the influx of frantic Canadians in need of help — the number of Canadians registered with the embassy would swell from 10,000 to more than 30,000 in 72 hours.

And second, the only way out was by boat because the Beirut airport had been taken out of commission last Thursday by Israeli strikes.

Canada is accustomed to arranging evacuations by air. Water was another matter. Unlike countries such as Britain and the United States, Canada had no military vessels in the region. And that meant private ships would have to be leased from places such as Cyprus at a time when many other countries were trying to do the same thing.

Canadian officials arrived in Nicosia on Sunday afternoon to set up a command centre in the Cypriot capital and prepare for the evacuation. Canada no longer operates an embassy or even a full consulate in Cyprus, only a small office staffed by a part-time honorary consul, so officials had to be brought in from Ottawa and from Canada's other embassies.

“Well, it's fair to say that some Canadians arrived on Sunday, but only just,†said one diplomat involved in the operation.

It was hard to find staff, since huge numbers of Foreign Affairs and embassy staff were on vacation, and many of the embassies were unable to spare workers. Of the approximately 36 people now working in Cyprus, the majority arrived Tuesday or yesterday.

They set up shop in two cramped rooms at the International Hilton hotel, and the staff found themselves cut off from most decisions, unable even to communicate with the local government.

“I haven't heard anything from the Canadians — they haven't even told us they're here,†Homer Mavrommatis, head of the Consular Affairs division for the Cypriot government, said Wednesday.

Aside from shortage of staff, the Canadians involved in the operation say they were hampered by another difficulty: the Prime Minister's centralized command and communications policies — frustrations that were expressed both in the Middle East and in Ottawa.

All decisions had to be made and approved by Ottawa. And, with six time zones between the locations, decisions were often painfully slow.

While other countries were already marshalling large cruise ships on Sunday, Canada spent two days in long-distance discussions before any calls were made.

“It was only 24 to 36 hours ago that we first got in contact with the owners of the ships,†one senior official in Cyprus said Wednesday.

Most of the ships, very small compared with those used by other countries, were leased from a charter company based in Turkey. Ottawa, citing “security issues,†then took a full day to finalize the deal. The number of ships and the terms of the deal kept changing, officials said, as they dealt with increasingly angry families.

On Tuesday night, they realized that the promise they'd made earlier — that there would be seven boats each transporting two loads of Canadians per day starting Wednesday — could never be met. There wouldn't be seven boats, and it appeared unlikely that even one of them would be able to make it across the Mediterranean by the end of last night.

And the boat owners were extremely nervous about whether Israel, which is blockading the Beirut harbour, would honour any commitment to give them safe passage.

But even as late as Wednesday morning, Canadian officials in Beirut were confidently telling reporters that all seven ships were on their way, and that they expected to get 2,000 people out of the country by sundown. Thursday, they had hoped to be moving something close to double that number.

Far more than 2,000 people showed up at the Beirut port at 7 a.m. Wednesday, nearly all of them claiming that they'd been contacted by the embassy and told they had a space on the first ships. The tiny embassy staff was swamped from the start, unable to keep up with the unexpected flood of people claiming they had been guaranteed a spot.

The embassy in Beirut swore it had a contingency plan in place before Wednesday. It's standard practice for all embassies to prepare for an evacuation, although operations this large are not something that can be practised.

In Cyprus, Canadian officials said they felt betrayed by Ottawa. Canadian diplomats say the reason Wednesday's evacuation was so catastrophically slow is because decisions had to be routed through Ottawa — and nobody was even at work in Ottawa until midafternoon in Lebanon. “If you want to know where that boat is going, don't ask us — it's Ottawa driving the boat,†one official said, using a line repeated by others throughout the day.

But there were other, serious logistical problems to be dealt with. As many as 40,000 Canadians may need to be removed, and the initial plan of moving them into Cyprus ran into a serious obstacle: It is vacation season on this popular Mediterranean resort island and most hotels and airplane seats have long been booked. Short of dumping them into refugee camps, nothing could be done with the Canadians.

That was why, on Tuesday, Ottawa abruptly switched the target of the evacuation from Cyprus to Turkey, where there are both hotel spaces and the facilities to quickly airlift evacuees to Canada using military or commercial planes.

Still, that switch took Canadian officials in Cyprus by surprise. Wednesday morning they prepared to move the Nicosia operation to Turkey.

Suddenly, last night, they were told the Prime Minister would be visiting and that Canadians — any Canadians — would have to be brought to the port of Larnaca, Cyprus. They made an urgent request to the British government, which had been taking Britons on large naval vessels with military escorts to the western city of Limassol, to allow 120 Canadians to board one of the ships so that there would be some available to greet the Prime Minister and ride home on his Airbus jet.

One government official in Ottawa, who asked to remain unidentified, expressed concern that Mr. Harper's decision to fly to Cyprus to offer up the services of the government jet might be perceived by Canadians as a publicity stunt. The government could have sent one of its Challenger jets to Paris to pick up the Prime Minister and his staff, the source said, freeing up more room on the Airbus.

But, even if they had qualms, the Canadian officials quickly booked suites of rooms and offices at the Palm Beach resort hotel in Larnaca, and made the half-hour journey to the port. Joined by newly arrived officials from the PMO, they set up a war room in the hotel's conference centre and were quickly struck by waves of bad news.

First, it turned out that 120 Canadians had not boarded the British vessel — at most, perhaps 20 were on board. The officials then scrambled to see whether the single Canadian-rented vessel that had reached Beirut, the Lebanese-licensed Blue Dawn, could sail more quickly to Larnaca to meet the Prime Minister.

It quickly became apparent this wasn't going to happen. While Israel had guaranteed Canadians passage, the captain wasn't ready to move without military escort — and Canada couldn't deliver that. Hours passed. The sun set. And it wasn't until 11 p.m. in Beirut that the ship finally left the dock with 261 Canadians aboard.

But the end was not in sight for the passengers. The trip to Cyprus takes from six to 10 hours depending on weather and the speed of the vessel. And the Israelis were demanding that private ships leaving the harbour, especially those with unfriendly flags, follow an ever-changing and lengthy route from one checkpoint vessel to another, a zigzag that can add hours to the journey. The Canadian vessel, as a Lebanese-flagged ship without military escort, was given the full treatment.

And when the Blue Dawn finally reaches Larnaca to meet the Prime Minister, another set of obstacles was anticipated.

Last night, three very big U.S. ships and a Swedish/Norwegian ship containing 1,500 people arrived, which proved too much for the harbour. One of the U.S. ships was diverted to Limassol, 85 kilometres away. So it may prove impossible, in the wee hours of this morning, for the Canadian ship even to find a slot. It was given a narrow berth, booked at exactly 6 a.m., but harbour officials said Wednesday that they had no idea whether the Canadians could be fit in.

Meanwhile, the other six vessels, which had left their home ports Wednesday to pick up Canadians, were still floating empty in the Mediterranean. There was hope Wednesday that they would make it into the harbour, starting at 6 a.m. Beirut time Thursday. But Israel has said entry will be permitted only one ship at a time.

Foreign Affairs acknowledged yesterday that the one-at-a-time process will greatly complicate the logistics of getting people out of the holding area and onto the ships, increasing the likelihood of chaos at the dock again Thursday.

With a report from Brian Laghi in Ottawa

[Birdy]

PRECISELY where a lack of military funding BITES US in the ASS.

Harper can't be blamed for the 'we don't need a military' attitude the Liberal government of the past decade adopted. along with the majority of Canadian citizens. i hope this serves as a massive eye opener for ALL.

no boats? no friggin' MONEY!

ps. thanks for posting meggo.. that article has a big message to get across.

Edited July 21, 2006 by Guest

[Hux]

'we don't need a military' attitude

The issue is a little more nuanced than that.

[ollie]

Great. We're back to blaming the Liberals.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Given the logistics of what needs to be done - getting Canadian citizens out of hot spots going to shit - why not just put the money into Navcan?

[guigsy]

Naw, people will have completely forgotten that this ever happened (or where Lebanon is again).

or was.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Or was. Don't these sorts of incursions usually get lumped under the rubric of "war"?

Israelis occupy Lebanese village: 400,000 people live in area of Lebanon Israel has ordered evacuated

Jul. 22, 2006. 11:11 AM

ASSOCIATED PRESS

ON THE ISRAEL-LEBANON BORDER — Israeli tanks and hundreds of troops moved in and out of Lebanon today, taking over a village, entering a UN observation post and engaging Hezbollah guerrillas by land, sea and air as part of the country’s limited ground campaign.

The soldiers — backed by artillery and tank fire — took control of the large village of Maroun al-Ras, military officials said on condition of anonymity.

That included a group of Israeli tanks, bulldozers and personnel carriers that knocked down a border fence and entered the area this afternoon. The equipment and about 25 soldiers raced past a UN outpost and headed into the village, where other Israeli soldiers reportedly already had control.

Gunfire could be heard from the village, and artillery based inside Israel also was firing into the area.

In all, up to 2,000 Israeli troops entered the area today, but some returned to Israel during the day. No Israeli or Hezbollah casualties were immediately reported.

Lebanese security sources, speaking on condition of anonymity, disputed the Israeli account, saying the Israeli military had made incursions of only a few hundred metres into the Maroun al-Ras and Yaroun villages.

From the Israeli side of the border, Israeli troops were seen heading into Maroun al-Ras and were fighting with some Hezbollah guerrillas. At one point, a 500-kilogram bomb hit a Hezbollah outpost near Maroun al-Ras.

Soldiers told The Associated Press that Israeli forces were just 200 metres from Hezbollah fighters, who fired back.

Israeli fighter bombers fired missiles at transmission towers in the central and northern Lebanese mountains, knocking three television stations off the air and cutting phone links to some regions.

Israeli warplanes targeting a truck hit a Christian suburb of Beirut earlier this week, but today’s raids were the first major air strikes in the Christian heartland.

The 11-day-old Israeli air campaign has hammered mainly Shiite Muslim regions in southern and eastern Lebanon as well as Beirut’s southern suburbs.

Thousands of Israeli troops are massed along the border but so far Israel has ruled out a large-scale ground incursion to sweep Hezbollah out of the area.

More positions were bombarded by Israeli gunboats operating off the coast. In Marwahin, also along the border, Israeli troops recovered anti-tank missiles, a launcher, and other weapons used by Hezbollah. Israel said that more than 150 Hezbollah targets in Lebanon had been attacked.

The raid was part of Israel’s wider strategy of running a “limited†ground operation aimed at destroying Hezbollah’s tunnels, hideouts and weapons stashes in south Lebanon.

Hezbollah has fired hundreds of rockets at northern Israeli towns from north of the Lebanese border, killing 16 civilians and forcing hundreds of thousands of Israelis to repeatedly flee into bunkers. More than 360 Lebanese and other civilians, including eight Canadians, have died in the Israeli bombardment of Lebanon.

Today, at least 42 Hezbollah rockets struck Karmiel, injuring two people, while rockets also fell on Kiriyat Shemona, Nahariya and smaller communities such as Bet Hilel, Mayan Baruch and Mashov Am.

Air raid sirens sounded several times in Haifa, Israel’s third-largest city, but no rocket strikes were reported.

Israel’s army chief of staff, Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz, on Friday said the military would conduct “limited ground operations as much as needed in order to harm the terror that harms us†— leaving it unclear how deep and how powerful the Israeli punch into Lebanon would be.

Israel’s goal is not to create a buffer zone as it did during its occupation of southern Lebanon from 1982 to 2000, said a senior military official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the topic’s military sensitivity.

Instead, Israel wants to weaken Hezbollah to make it easier for the Lebanese army to move into areas previously controlled by the guerrillas, possibly with the aid of a stronger international peacekeeping force, the official said.

An Israeli ground incursion, however, could dramatically increase the pain in Lebanon. More than 400,000 people live south of the Litani River, north of which Israel wants to push Hezbollah. Though tens of thousands have left but many are believed still there, trapped because roads were damaged by Israeli bombs or afraid of being caught in the air strikes on thoroughfares.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice will visit the Middle East on Sunday, her first trip to the region since the crisis erupted 11 days ago — even as she ruled out a quick ceasefire as a “false promise.â€

Rice was headed to Rome for meetings with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, the Palestinian president and U.S. allies, before heading to the Middle East.

In Beirut, ships continued to arrive at the main port, part of a massive effort to evacuate Canadians, Americans and other foreigners.

France, the United Nations and the Red Cross demanded Israel open humanitarian corridors to allow life’s necessities — shelter, food, water and medicine — to reach the swelling numbers of displaced people — an estimated half-million.

Responding to a U.S. request, Israeli Defence Minister Amir Peretz said French aid would be allowed into Lebanon’s port of Sidon.

The Lebanese health ministry reported 362 deaths in Lebanon so far in the onslaught, an increase of 55 since it release figures on Thursday. Thirty-four Israelis also have been killed since the fighting began, including 18 soldiers and an air force officer killed Friday in the collision of two helicopters.

[hamilton]

No one declares war anymore. It's kind of sad, really - where's the sense of tradition?

[meggo]

ps. thanks for posting meggo.. that article has a big message to get across.

i thought the article was interesting... but increased military spending is pretty far from my priorities. call me naive... but it seems like it was more of a big shmozzle of organization. days before canadians were killed in lebanon harper was calling israel's actions "measured" [yes, yes, that may be a non-sequitur] .

[Birdy]

military spending isn't one of my top priorities either, in light of day to day needs of Canadian citizens. but when things like this happen, it kind of makes me think twice. think about how heavily the US had to rely on their military resources during Katrina. what would happen if Canada experienced a similar catastrophe? would it be calling all VWs and westfalias to the rescue? i think without the proper resources to deal with any sort of tragedy/evacuation/whatever we would be faced with a big shmozzle of organization. they're organizing resources that we just don't have... i'd fuck it up too.

and while i admit it's easy to point fingers, i'll take my comments about the libs back.. but i can't sit quiet and let a newly formed minority government take blame for not being able to mobilize fast enough... especially considering that their very platform called for increased military expenditure in case such events were to occur. it's jut not fair.

[ollie]

and while i admit it's easy to point fingers, i'll take my comments about the libs back.. but i can't sit quiet and let a newly formed minority government take blame for not being able to mobilize fast enough... especially considering that their very platform called for increased military expenditure in case such events were to occur. it's jut not fair.

I don't think the criticism is fair either. I imagine the variables involved in this type of operation must be insane and I think the time taken to mobilize was acceptable. Turn on CNN and you'll hear similar complaints about the American government's reaction and they spend plenty on their military.

[afro poppa]

I missed way too much of this convo to get back into it...I was away all week at 10klf (which rocked)

its gonna take me a couple days to regroup my brain cells and read up on all that has happened in the passed week...

[StoneMtn]

I have been pointed, today, to a great resource if you are interested in reading up-to-the-minute news on this. Admittedly, this resource is likely to be somewhat skewed in a pro-Israel fashion, but then again, every media source has its own biases, so that's nothing new...

http://www.debka.com/index.php

[Deeps]

Dipshittery from "Snarl" down @ Jamhub

Check out the lovely comment by user Snarl about 3/4s down the page.

Sorry kids ... found this oddly pertinent.

[Birdy]

and while i admit it's easy to point fingers' date=' i'll take my comments about the libs back.. but i can't sit quiet and let a newly formed minority government take blame for not being able to mobilize fast enough... especially considering that their very platform called for increased military expenditure in case such events were to occur. it's jut not fair.[/quote']

I don't think the criticism is fair either. I imagine the variables involved in this type of operation must be insane and I think the time taken to mobilize was acceptable. Turn on CNN and you'll hear similar complaints about the American government's reaction and they spend plenty on their military.

i agree. people don't think situations out. if a canadian citizen is endangered in a distant far away land, we go get them. they don't think how we go get them, what we put them in, how we pay for that, whose approval needs to be attained to do that, how we staff an embassy in a country whose airports are bombed to shit, etc. etc. etc. dealing with large scale evacuations properly (and with limited resources) requires some serious cooperation, money and organization. the public looks for instant gratification.. and are a very demanding and unforgiving group.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Dipshittery from "Snarl" down @ Jamhub

Check out the lovely comment by user Snarl about 3/4s down the page.

Sorry kids ... found this oddly pertinent.

Pity nobody seemed to get the point; good try, though, Deeps. Pretty crazy-making. I also noticed in passing references to a "tent-nazi", which manages to reduce language to yet another level of banality.

[StoneMtn]

Jamhub.ca has a terrible reputation for having far too many jerks on there.

I didn't believe it, so I posted a few times.

After being insulted one time too many, I stopped going to that board. I get enough insults in my normal workday, that I don't need them online.

(Now, I get to see that people on there are actually insulting my whole race, and then they get defended by other ignorami who just want to "stick to the point" which is talking about a festival () because that is obviously the important issue.)

Well done jamhub. Way to always remain consistent!

[meggo]

i think without the proper resources to deal with any sort of tragedy/evacuation/whatever we would be faced with a big shmozzle of organization. they're organizing resources that we just don't have...

yep, fair enough. i guess when i think of military spending i think 'fighting', not 'rescue efforts,' but of course that is a big part of what the forces do. obviously i would not want to reduce money that goes to helping people.

[Birdy]

we're on the same page meggo.