the middle east is going even more apeshit

[Birdy]

While many world leaders might think wishfully about obliterating the Jewish state' date=' Israel is in fact obliterating Lebanon at the moment.[/quote']

What Israel is trying to do is force the Lebanese Government to act against Hezbollah.

So, in other words, Israel is obliterating Lebanon. The Lebanese government, for some time now, has been powerless against Hezbollah. I'm sure if they could do something, they would, as it's been in their interest for at least a decade to do so. If the Lebanese government turned against Hezbollah at this point, they'd be fighting two wars, not one. The Israeli government needs to see this.

[afro poppa]

The point is that Lebanon should have turned against Hezbollah a long time ago, I think. I read somewhere (and will try and find where) that they are going to send lots of troops to southern Lebanon to fight with Israel against Hezbollah.

And yes, unfortunately while Israel is trying to defend itself (which many think they aren't even doing, because it is crippling Lebanon) they are doing serious damage to Lebanon, for instance that huge oil slick that will seriously damage the fishing economy and not to mention all those poor animals living in the water. It's really become a no win situation. I just pray that after this is all over Israel actually gets out of of Lebanon and Hezbollah stops wanting to get rid of the Jews.

...ahh I hate war.

In many ways I wish I didn't have such a biased view of this. But I have cousins living in Israel and fighting in this war...so I dont know what to think anymore. I just know I hate waking up every morning and seeing 100 or so people killed in such a such a bombing...brutal.

Edited August 8, 2006 by Guest

[ollie]

Hey poppa, I hope your cousins stay safe. I don't mean to come out on any one side, I am just stunned by the recent death toll figures.

[Birdy]

poppa i hope your cousin is safe too. my prayers are out there for him/her.

without outside support, i really cant see how lebanon could have turned on hezbollah.. terrorist cells are so deeply rooted over there.. and the lebanese government doesnt and didnt have the resources to fight that war. i agree, they should have, but in doing so, they would have killed themselves off pretty damn quickly. theres definately no black and white politics when it comes to this one.

im scared because i think the declaration of war on terror was the catalyst move for WWIII. slowly but surely ducks are alining and alliances are being formed, each with their own purpose, but united under one umbrella. i, too, am scared as by all means who I would like to consider the good guys are hands down, no questions asked, the agressors, just as much as germany/italy in WWII and germany in WWI. that scares the fing shit out of me.

this question is a hard one to ask, but how many people should it be OK to kill in the name of defence? When is it ok to question? When does it become NOT ok?

[afro poppa]

Thanks for the prayers, they are very much appreciated.

These are definately scary times. I just hope that those that can act (Israel, Hezbollah, Arab Nations, UN, USA, NATO) just act in a way that brings us to peace. While that is easy for me to say, I feel that if there was some way for this to end easily it would've been accomplished already. However, I am probably wrong.

Whats with human beings and not being able to learn from past history?

Edited August 9, 2006 by Guest

[hamilton]

While many world leaders might think wishfully about obliterating the Jewish state' date=' Israel is in fact obliterating Lebanon at the moment.[/quote']

What Israel is trying to do is force the Lebanese Government to act against Hezbollah. I don't know if I agree with their measures of doing so, although I do agree that the Lebanese Government should act against Hezbollah...

They tried that (sort of)... it was called the Lebanese Civil War. It lasted from 1975-1990, and over 100,000 people died. I know I'm simplifying things a lot, but one of the main causes was friction between the Lebanese and the Palestinian refugees who flooded the southern part of the country, and more specifically, the PLO.

If the Lebanese government took specific action against Hezbollah, it would virtually guarantee a return to civil war.

[Hal Johnson]

this question is a hard one to ask, but how many people should it be OK to kill in the name of defence? When is it ok to question? When does it become NOT ok?

When the "name of defence" excuse is arbitrary to say the least, I believe the answer is ZERO.

[Birdy]

i don't know if i'd go so far to say the excuses are arbitrary. It's well known that these terrorist groups want to wipe Israel and America off the map.

but i just think that after so many years of defending Israel or America or the 'Western World', death toll statistics have got to be adding up. Killing is killing and murder is murder, no matter what side you are on.

[MarcO]

This is a great debate, folks, very civil and full of food for thought. Thanks.

[Hal Johnson]

I agree with you to a point, Birdie. I guess what really bothers me though is that these "Terrorists," will never stop and say, "Hey, you've killed every last one of us - we give up." You know what I mean?

On the other hand, Isreal is never gonna say, "Hey, you were right all along, here's your freakin land back."

Its something that really depresses me, as there seems to be no viable solution. Those with the power seem to think violence is the only way to go, but for every terrorist killed, another one is born, and for every terrorist attack, another one is killed.

[Hal Johnson]

i don't know if i'd go so far to say the excuses are arbitrary. It's well known that these terrorist groups want to wipe Israel and America off the map.

Why do you suppose these groups wish to wipe America off the map? Please dont say it's because of their freedom.

[Birdy]

i think the want of ridding the world of Israel and America has a long and serious complex history to simply say it's about freedom. i can understand why each country feels the need to defend themselves, but i don't agree with how they go about defending themselves. in some cases, they actively seek out possible threats and kill and punish before any such threat becomes reality. that's not right. remember the movie Minority Report? scary shit i say.. and the more we rely on intelligence, the more we move to this kind of behaviour. other times, i think the punishment just doesn't fit the crime. 911 was despicable, shocking and horrifying, but what has come after in terms of retribution is far, far worse. but as long as we continue to think the West is right, there exists nothing that can keep these powers in check. there's noone to say 'ok, enough is enough'.. they just keep going and going and going and going. terrorism isn't an entity, it's a way of life. you can't destroy it. attempting to just makes things twenty million times worse.

[StoneMtn]

There's no war on terrorism. That's a term of propaganda. There cannot be a war on terrorism led by the one state in the world that has been condemned for international terrorism and supported by major terrorist states like Russia and China. We can call it something but we can't call it a war on terrorism.

~ Noam Chomsky

[Deeps]

Thanks for this link SM.

Deeps

[StoneMtn]

My pleasure.

If you dug that, then click this for his official homepage:

http://www.chomsky.info/