the middle east is going even more apeshit

[Biggest Fan]

Having gone to Turkey for our 'Honeymoon' (really), I have a real hard time swallowing the anti-muslim slant of the American Press.

I think 'Deeps' hit on the idea pretty well in that there are religious radicals on both side who are determining how the 'ship' is being steered.

[Deeps]

Check ... check....is this thing on?

DEM, SM, AP wondering where you're at.

This whole conflict has consumed me for the last while.

I remember my Dad immediately after 9/11 saying that I was going to grow understand what it was like for him when he grew up during the late 60s early 70s with Viet Nam raging.

Sadly I think he was right.

I get it and it's all fucking backward and agonizing....I move from wanting to educate myself to wanting to hide my head in the ground.

Anyway,

Talk you soon kind people.

[Biggest Fan]

Deeps, I'm with you. I am so deeply troubled by all this.

I think the events that have taken place over this past week have really made our world a much more dangerous and unstable place.

I could (and will) go on but I'll spare you all for now.

[Deeps]

The UNs possible roles spoke of here in this article.

[afro poppa]

Alas, I was not saying that Israel is solely a Jewish State, but there is no denying that Israel is a Jewish State to most. If you have ever been there it is extremely Jewish in most parts of the country. In other, non Jewish parts it is obviously not a Jewish State, (for instance now Gaza, which is part of the country of Israel, but not occupied by Israelis...anymore...or is temporarily now...again).

You'd think if the jewish people only wanted the world to remember their attrocity sufferred and learn from it they'd want to declare Israel ... the land of all religions and acceptance

Oh I wish man, in a perfect world where there would be no hatred...and many people believe that Israel (Jerusalem in particular) will one day be the site of world peace and togetherness and equality and all that.

And I know that Jewish people aren't the only victims of genocide, and you put your point very nicely. I don't think the Jews were awarded a state (albeit, they had to fight for it) just because of the Holocaust (was there ever any bigger genocide?). It was because there was no place on earth that Jewish people could go at that time where they weren't persecuted against for practicing their beliefs. You may not believe it, but Jewish people were a very hated society for the longest time (I would bet that we are still hated in most circles). Because the Jews were so hated everywhere, we needed a land that we could call our own where we could practice safely and not be persecuted. The Jewish people didn't feel like they were being awarded this country either, in some ways it was already ours and we had been forced to leave it many many many many years ago (I am talking biblical times here).

Now, it obviously hasn't worked out as you have said...because radicals on both sides are trying to make everything hard for everyone else.

I don't know if any of that made sense, but its just the argument for the Jewish people having their own country...

Oh and my cousins are extremely religious and devote themselves to serving G-d and all that. To them freedom is being able to practice this religion without having to worry about being bombed every day.

[timouse]

I actually don't agree that comments bashing Israel's government are anti-Semitic (even using the layperson's understanding of anti-Semitic as meaning Jew-hating).

I do not believe that as a Jewish person I have to agree with everything the Israeli government does, and I think it is fair to question them without being deemed anti-Jewish.

(I should say, I am at work, so I haven't read the article in question, and if there is language in there that is anti-Jewish, rather than anti-Israeli-government, then that is a different story.)

well put, sm.

the article is by robert fisk, an english journalist who has been a middle east correspondent since the iran-iraq war. fisk lives in beirut, and from what i can tell writes from the civilian point of view.

he has been accused many times of being anti-semitic, and basically states that he is critical of the actions of the israeli military and/or government, and that this is not at all anti-semitic, but rather a straw man argument that detracts from the point. governments are behaving terribly and people (not jews or arabs, people) are dying.

[StoneMtn]

Deeps:

I am actually quite undecided on what I think of recent events.

I do think that Israel has a right to defend itself. It also sounds as though Israel retaliated to an attack, and like many strikes took out some innocents in the process. I also suspect that we do not know all the facts, as I find that the media are terrible at accurately reporting anything, which is why I'm reluctant to judge in this case.

Now, as far as Israel existing, I absolutely support that idea. I should start by saying, though, that I do not normally like the idea of a religious state. Israel, however, is not run according to Rabbinic law. (This is different than Muslim countries in which Muslim law is the actual law of the land.) Rather, Israel has a similar legal system to that which we are accustomed in Canada. The religious Jews follow their own Rabbinic laws, too, but religious Jews do that in every country; not just Israel.

I am certainly able to be accused of bias, given that I am Jewish, but it has been well documented for thousands of years that Jewish people have been persecuted and many attempts at genocide have been aimed at us. It is for that reason that I do support the idea that a country must exist in the world where Jewish people can run if (when) this happens next. (Bear in mind that Canada wouldn't allow Jews in during WWII, in case you think we might have better options.)

Should other groups who have been the targets of genocide get their own country, if they don't have one so far? Maybe. That's another issue, and the fact that Gypsies don't have a country does not detract from whether Jews should.

Should Israel be located somewhere that many others also claim to have similar title to? I certainly see that as problematic, and if someone had asked me in the mid-1940's, I probably would have been more inclined to try to find a nice island somewhere in the middle of the ocean to become Israel, but Israel is where it is, situated among many who'd like it to desist, and it is for that reason that it has to be defended.

Has Israel pushed its borders beyond what it should, given that the wall does not follow the "green line". Probably; and that is Israel's fault.

[afro poppa]

SM put what I was trying to say in much better words.

[slammer]

i thought that occurs to me...if a nation has an agenda that tends to overide the primary function of governnment [making laws and creating programs the protect and support the welfare of the people that elect the governement]...then that agenda can distract the government from it's primary function

isms like capitalism, racism, communism, facism etc. can seriously get in the way of a government doing their job...these notions/agendas have a way of projecting themselves onto other countries thus causing horrible conflicts...it is a drag that this happens...

until some major global healing occurs we will probably have to suffer through the results of some peoples putting their notions of who they are/or who they feel they are suppose to be before their own need to evolve ...

these are my thoughts...

[Birdy]

condofuggin'leeza rice drives me insane. i might despise her.

a ceasefire, whether two days long, two weeks long, or two years long, is better than war. she condemns from a platform in the sunshine state a ceasfire, as she is holding out for "modern, democratic reform" and isolating 'extremists'.

I can't help but think 'modern, democratic reform' is a concept that is going to fry us all in the end.

[ollie]

For anyone who wants to bone up on their background material, this isn't a too, too long read:

wikipedia's History of Israel

[ollie]

After reading that, I have to wonder how Israel built up such a kick-ass army from such modest roots while fighting off its neighbours the whole time. That's impressive.

[Biggest Fan]

Ollie, is that a serious question?

[Birdy]

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!

[hamilton]

The Jewish people didn't feel like they were being awarded this country either, in some ways it was already ours and we had been forced to leave it many many many many years ago (I am talking biblical times here).

If a Native American tribe comes to your house and tells you that you have to leave because you are living on land that used to belong to their people hundreds of years ago* and had been promised to them by the Great Spirit in the sky for all eternity, I hope you are prepared to peacefully leave and find some other place to live.

*(which would probably give them a stronger claim than the Jewish claim of owning Israel *thousands* of years ago)

[Hal Johnson]

The Jewish people didn't feel like they were being awarded this country either' date=' in some ways it was already ours and we had been forced to leave it many many many many years ago (I am talking biblical times here).[/quote']

If a Native American tribe comes to your house and tells you that you have to leave because you are living on land that used to belong to their people hundreds of years ago* and had been promised to them by the Great Spirit in the sky for all eternity, I hope you are prepared to peacefully leave and find some other place to live.

*(which would probably give them a stronger claim than the Jewish claim of owning Israel *thousands* of years ago)

Another good point.

I was also thinking that in Toronto theres a buch of jerks shooting people, so it stands to reason that a measured act of self defense would be to Blow up the entire neighbourhood of Jane and Finch. Actually, theres many gun problems on the Lakeshore and in Albion too. We should seriously consider taking out all of Etobicoke to stop the gun terror that terrorizes my hometown.

[Hal Johnson]

Interesting note to add:

The CBC 11:00pm news stated that of the 237 or so dead in Lebanon, over 200 have been civillians.

[Hal Johnson]

Another intersting note to add: Harpers an asshole. (Not Jay)

Edited July 19, 2006 by Guest

[ollie]

Interesting note to add:

The CBC 11:00pm news stated that of the 237 or so dead in Lebanon, over 200 have been civillians.

On a similar note, this headline caught my eye:

Nearly 6,000 Iraqi civilians died in May and June, UN says

Unreal and so depressing.

[ollie]

Ollie, is that a serious question?

I wouldn't have asked it otherwise.

[ollie]

I've been reading this blog, written by a woman in Lebanon, over the past few days. You might find it interesting too.

Manamania

[Birdy]

If a Native American tribe comes to your house and tells you that you have to leave because you are living on land that used to belong to their people hundreds of years ago* and had been promised to them by the Great Spirit in the sky for all eternity, I hope you are prepared to peacefully leave and find some other place to live.

*(which would probably give them a stronger claim than the Jewish claim of owning Israel *thousands* of years ago)

a damn good point.

territorial ownership of land really boggles my mind in the sense that at some point, it really didn't belong to any particular group. there will always be a 'before' to any given point in history. at what point can any group say that land is rightfully theirs? when is it ok to lay claim? what about the peoples that inhabited the land before the dates on any specific claim? really?

i'm not in favour of land claims. i don't understand who has the authority to grant land, and i don't understand people who think they have the authority to grant land.

persecution is an ugly, UGLY thing. when i think about the millions of people who have died defending Israel and the countless wars that have been fought and the horrible human atrocities committed over thousands of years, i can't help but compare the ugliness. it's a messy situation.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Land - the Marxist in me is tempted to say that's really what it's about - the basic stuff of how groups of people keep themselves going. Wouldn't it be great if there were a simple thing to say about all this. It's hard to resist the pull to reduce any of the complexity by falling back on collective nouns and lumping together important chunks of history.

I thought StoneMtn hit something on the head, though -

Should Israel be located somewhere that many others also claim to have similar title to? I certainly see that as problematic, and if someone had asked me in the mid-1940's, I probably would have been more inclined to try to find a nice island somewhere in the middle of the ocean to become Israel, but Israel is where it is, situated among many who'd like it to desist, and it is for that reason that it has to be defended.

(though I do hope you were speaking with a bit of irony - Adolph Eichmann's plan before the Entlosung was thrown into play had been to export Europe's Jews to Madagascar; it was canned as too costly).

Who doesn't want a safe place to call home, where we can live out all those weird little idiosyncratic practices we gather together under the rubric of "culture", where we don't have to look over our shoulders for blows raining down because we don't toe some arbitrary line?

At the same time, I do have some trouble with the fusing of the cultural/religious and the political whenever criticism of the Israeli government is dismissed as "anti-semitism". For one thing, it glosses over differences among Jews; there are not a few ultra-conservative Jews (even ones living today in Israel) who regard Zionism as sheer, unforgivable heresy because only God should have been the one who brought the Jews back to their land, and not people. The means that were used to do so were clearly terroristic (take Irgun , for example, which fed in different ways into the Likud party), but the end results were politically expedient for the West (despite obvious losses to the British), who needed to contain both growing Arab nationalism and the Soviet threat.

That said, I think it's pathological to deny the existence of Israel, which is there, in the same way that we're here, in Canada, our home on Native land. That recognition obviously needs to go both ways, though, and it's hard as long as there are people within a) the Israeli fold who still regard their country as a "land without a people for a people without a land" as the old phrase went (which would suggest that Palestinians just spontaneously generated, in blunt defiance of the scientific method), and among Arabs and other Muslims who consider the existence of Israelis and Jews as a perpetual slap in the face and insult to the presumed superiority of their faith.

And then there's the problem of labels. I ran across a pretty good interview with Richard Dawkins the other day, and he made the point that religious conflict tends to get defined as "religious" just because there may be no better or more obvious markers of difference among people who happen to be fighting an ongoing fight. When someone from the IRA in N. Ireland kills a Protestant paramilitary, he's not in all likelihood going to be mulling over crucial points of theology in his head as he pulls the trigger; he's more likely to be thinking, "one of these fuckers killed my cousin, and I'm going to get 'them' back by killing one of 'them'."

In other words, this whole business is more likely to be hopelessly emotional and reactionary, and less likely to be in the least bit considered and rational.

[ollie]

Hello Conservative majority government!

Harper arrives in Cyprus to help with evacuation

Prime Minister Stephen Harper arrived in Cyprus Wednesday on a government plane he diverted to help remove Canadians fleeing the fighting in Lebanon.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper: 'It's more than a symbolic trip. There is a need for air support in Cyprus.' (CBC) Harper said he will try to bring back as many as 120 Canadians using the Canadian Forces plane that took him to Europe last week.

All kidding aside, this is a tremendous display of leadership.

[Hal Johnson]

I say he's just being opportunistic. The day before this, he kept saying how this was gonna be the "biggest rescue of Canadians in the history of Canada." You could see the glimmer in his eye when he said it too. In fact I believe he answered a question from the french media with this, even though the querry had nothing to do with it. So now that he gets to personally rescue 150 of them is absolute gravy for him and his stupid party. Gotta admit, it's a brilliant move though, cuz from now on he could rape little boys and most Canadians would still say, "Ya, but he rescued all those Canadians during the middle east crisis - I didnt see no Liberals do anything about the mid-east." If you dont believe me, just listen to Toronto radio when his terms up.