You know what I fuÇking abhor?

[bokonon]

I abhor feeling like the only ethical people around are the broke people. It seems like everyone is scamming other people to get ahead. I would really like to meet one person who has the American dream and does it ethically. Without having to lie, cheat or steal; without having to put a spin on what they do.

God, today sucks.

[popo weenie]

I abhor feeling like the only ethical people around are the broke people. It seems like everyone is scamming other people to get ahead. I would really like to meet one person who has the American dream and does it ethically. Without having to lie, cheat or steal; without having to put a spin on what they do.

God, today sucks.

IT,S ONLY THE MOON, SUCKS HERE TOO

[d_rawk]

True, but on the bright side, abhor is a great word.

[YearsAlongTheSea]

You need to strive for the Canerican Dream, or Canadian Dream if you're into that kind of thing. The American Dream will just leave you bruised, bitter and empty inside...

Cheer up! Where are you anyways?

[paisley]

rather be poor than unethical

though ideally rather be ethical and well off =)

(think that just takes longer)

[paisley]

fuck abhor?

I hardly know abhor!

[timouse]

nature abhors a vacuum.

[timouse]

i abhor a gabor.

[popo weenie]

You need to strive for the Canerican Dream, or Canadian Dream if you're into that kind of thing. The American Dream will just leave you bruised, bitter and empty inside...

Cheer up! Where are you anyways?

I THINK HE WENT TO THE MOON TO FIX THE PROBLEM

CHEERS

[bokonon]

You need to strive for the Canerican Dream' date=' or Canadian Dream if you're into that kind of thing. The American Dream will just leave you bruised, bitter and empty inside...

Cheer up! Where are you anyways?[/quote']

I THINK HE WENT TO THE MOON TO FIX THE PROBLEM

CHEERS

I'm a 'she' and I'm in Montreal. I was actually thinking with all this travelling I could start a game thread on here, like "Where in the World Is Carmen San Diego?" Only it would be "Where the Fuck is Bokonon?" My clues would be much more colourful than Carmen's.

[Blane]

I'll see your abhorrance and raise you one...

Not only do you end up better off behaving unethically, but it's EASIER to behave unethically.

Case in point: I want to invest some money for the future. I want to invest it in energy, because I think it's a sector that's going to have tons of demand. Now if you choose to give your money to the tar sands and other standard Canadian "rape and pillage" energy investments you pull in a nice fat 30%-50% a year return on your investment. Ethically, it's kinda like selling your soul for a quick buck.

However, try to find some Canadian investment fund for alternative energies. It's almost impossible! Plenty available in the US, but you have to be American to buy them.

Why is it so much easier to just follow the "race to the bottom" status-quo?

[timouse]

I'll see your abhorrance and raise you one...

Not only do you end up better off behaving unethically, but it's EASIER to behave unethically.

Case in point: I want to invest some money for the future. I want to invest it in energy, because I think it's a sector that's going to have tons of demand. Now if you choose to give your money to the tar sands and other standard Canadian "rape and pillage" energy investments you pull in a nice fat 30%-50% a year return on your investment. Ethically, it's kinda like selling your soul for a quick buck.

However, try to find some Canadian investment fund for alternative energies. It's almost impossible! Plenty available in the US, but you have to be American to buy them.

Why is it so much easier to just follow the "race to the bottom" status-quo?

i would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

i have a profit sharing plan at work...each year's contribution is invested by a fund manager. the employees have some marginal choice as to where the money goes, but it's standard north american choice/no choice choice, hold your nose and choose the least objectionable option.

so i see your abhorrence...my personal current pet abhorrence of the way things are runs similarly. niffermouse and i have both become increasingly involved in the organic farming and food industry in SoOn over the last few years, to the point that we both want to buy a farm and be part of the solution. the problem? (s)?

city folk looking for a monster home surrounded by a few acres of lawn and a long commute have made rural property artificially expensive.

industrial agriculture has kept food prices artificially low.

taxes and zoning restrictions on rural property close to cities (markets) adds to the challenge of setting up a small sustainable farm. quite often, suitable parcels of land are priced with developers in mind.

today's phrase is catch 22.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

I thought morals and ethics were just social constructs.

[dancingbear]

I'll see your abhorrance and raise you one...

Not only do you end up better off behaving unethically, but it's EASIER to behave unethically.

Case in point: I want to invest some money for the future. I want to invest it in energy, because I think it's a sector that's going to have tons of demand. Now if you choose to give your money to the tar sands and other standard Canadian "rape and pillage" energy investments you pull in a nice fat 30%-50% a year return on your investment. Ethically, it's kinda like selling your soul for a quick buck.

However, try to find some Canadian investment fund for alternative energies. It's almost impossible! Plenty available in the US, but you have to be American to buy them.

Why is it so much easier to just follow the "race to the bottom" status-quo?

yeah i hear you, i want to start an RRSP and went to talk to someone last week. she said, well 'ethical' funds are not really ethical as you can always find something wrong'. i guess i agree but its still better than finding everything wrong with other funds. kind of a cop out.

anyhow i read in the globe about investors summa fund, "canada's largest socially responsible fund'. havnt checked it out yet but thought i'd mention it...

[popo weenie]

You need to strive for the Canerican Dream' date=' or Canadian Dream if you're into that kind of thing. The American Dream will just leave you bruised, bitter and empty inside...

Cheer up! Where are you anyways?[/quote']

I THINK HE WENT TO THE MOON TO FIX THE PROBLEM

CHEERS

I'm a 'she' and I'm in Montreal. I was actually thinking with all this travelling I could start a game thread on here, like "Where in the World Is Carmen San Diego?" Only it would be "Where the Fuck is Bokonon?" My clues would be much more colourful than Carmen's.

ha a good one thought you were a farmer in northern ontario, thats what i had pictured in my mind

sitting on your furry tractor

[phishtaper]

I thought morals and ethics were just social constructs.

you're thinking about reality ... well, you know, around here, at least ...

fwiw, on point, i know some ethical rich people.

[Blane]

I'll see your abhorrance and raise you one...

Not only do you end up better off behaving unethically' date=' but it's EASIER to behave unethically.

Case in point: I want to invest some money for the future. I want to invest it in energy, because I think it's a sector that's going to have tons of demand. Now if you choose to give your money to the tar sands and other standard Canadian "rape and pillage" energy investments you pull in a nice fat 30%-50% a year return on your investment. Ethically, it's kinda like selling your soul for a quick buck.

However, try to find some Canadian investment fund for alternative energies. It's almost impossible! Plenty available in the US, but you have to be American to buy them.

Why is it so much easier to just follow the "race to the bottom" status-quo?[/quote']

yeah i hear you, i want to start an RRSP and went to talk to someone last week. she said, well 'ethical' funds are not really ethical as you can always find something wrong'. i guess i agree but its still better than finding everything wrong with other funds. kind of a cop out.

anyhow i read in the globe about investors summa fund, "canada's largest socially responsible fund'. havnt checked it out yet but thought i'd mention it...

Yeah, I noticed that one, but it's confusing because it's actually about 8 different funds, with completely ambiguous names like Summa A, Summa B, Summa B - F, etc. Pretty confusing.

And on your other point, you're TOTALLY right. There doensn't appear to be a certification board for use of the term "Ethical" in finance, which means that you could deem your fund ethical by simply not investing in arms companies and the prison industry.

For example I looked up the Desjardins Environment fund which calls itself an ethical fund, but, if you read the fine print it says they invest in corporations that demonstrate strong responsibility in their sector. As a result, the "environment" fund's top 10 holdings include:

- 1 chemicals manufacturer

- 3 Oil & Gas companies

- 1 "integrated" oils company (whatever that means)

- 1 mining company.

That being 6 of the top 10 holdings of the "Environment" fund. I guess they're the "nice" mining and chemicals companies.

:blush:

Edited July 8, 2007 by Guest

[SaggyBalls]

Aah dear bokonon...

The truly righteous don't try to become rich, they are merely successful at being the best people they can be. Money is rarely the end goal.

If you want to be truly 'conscious' you will see that it costs a lot of money to eat organic fair trade local, not own anything made from materials that are commodity market driven, or consume much energy. they also don't tend to advertise, or expend much energy so unless they happen to get noticed, they will be making their tiny sphere the best place on earth.

Success is often self-serving and to truly have the 'american dream' one would have to work very hard and today people are not always hard-working and spirit-driven, nor are they willing to forgo luxury and convenience.

I think you fail to understand the nature of what you seek.

I feel like I'm on my way but I own very little and I'm pretty fucking poor. Not that it really matters - it's purely inconvenient.

I would have to say that the people you're talking about own their own businesses. There are loads of those folk around that you could easily get in touch with.

I believe that today is pretty fucking amazing and you're comparing it to yesterday or your projection of what you think the future should be.

Lighten up and spend your energy trying to dream lucidly and make those daydreams tangible.

[bokonon]

That was fantastic, thanks Rob.

[allison]

Canned Beats said that being broke was just inconvenient(I'd argue that being broke is a serious social disease with long term side effects for most people in Western society.No it shouldn't be-but it sure manifests itself that way).I think most people's ethics are largely based on convenience.If it is convenient to me then the hypothetical I will act ethically.If it becomes inconvenient than I will act unethically.What we label ethics is usually a weighted choice much easier for some to make given the circumstances of their lives than others.

To use environmental "ethics" as an example...Most of the well off to rich people I know are leaps and bounds more ethical than the poorer people because their money makes it more convenient.If I am a low income earner buying organic,only locally grown produce and products from responsible corporations,that choice bears sometimes drastic financial(and time) effects.If I am a higher earner than it's easier for me to do it because I don't have to regard(in the same way)the price points of the items I am buying.Both people make the same decision, manifest the same ethics, but one has to struggle much harder to maintain those ethics.Does that make them MORE ethical?

[SaggyBalls]

'broke' and 'poor' are 2 entirely different things. Poverty is very difficult to overcome while being 'broke' is possibly only temporary.

I really came back because I thought I may have come off like I think I'm hot shit. I guess the point I just made now puts me in the 'poverty' line rather than the 'broke' line but I have options and CAN get help if I need it - I always have a place to live and know that I can always eat. My life isn't as hard as somebody that's ACTUALLY poor. I just have low flow.

If you cannot afford to eat purely ethically then you are not doing wring, but if you have that option and choose not to take it to squander your riches on something that is wasting your time and is unhealthy down the line is that unethical?

What do I do with that extra $75? Finally buy the book that tells me how to make houshold cleaners, cosmetics, home remedies, and fix my stuff, get the recycled TP and the Canadian made, high quality goods that will last me a long time...or do I buy a case of beer and a half ounce of mushrooms?

how to decide?

Life isn't so black and white, but if we at least take some necessary steps to make a difference in our worlds I think the dream is attainable - it's just not quite as easy to get there so quickly.

My problem with the dream is that I keep waking up from it and then when i get back to sleep I'm dreaming of something else.

Perhaps defining ore redefining the dream is a great place to start so you can see if there's anything you will have to keep in mind...eh?

[boiler]

Construction work is honest work and we get paid pretty decently to do it. Please don't abhor me.