Miss Universe is a Jackass I guess

[AD]

AD,

"sexy" and "sexual" are the EXACT same thing. It's "sexist" and "sexual" that are different, [color:purple]though you may have to look sexist up in a dictionary, 'cause I think it's a new idea for ya!

I think a woman or a man can be sexy without being sexual, so how is it the same thing? Katherine Hepburn back in the day was pretty damn sexy, but there was nothing sexual about it. Maybe you could clarify your position a bit.

And don't go calling me names, purple font or not. You don't know me, extend some courtesy please. You're just clouding your argument if you resort to that stuff.

AD

[MarcO]

Deeps: See previous posts by the more diligent people of the board for the full and correct by-law.

It's not that Calamity Jane is being more diligent in this respect, it's simply that she is being obnoxious and condescending in stating what is, in the end, only her opinions - nothing more, nothing less.

As for you Deeps, my friend,

Deeps: It says "I guess" as in "I guess she's a jackass according to the powers that be at Nathan Phillips Square"….. Catch?

No, your heading is clearly in the first person. I believe you called her a jackass and are trying to twist this around more than a little because you got called on it. There is absolutely nothing in the original article that would suggest anyone in City government is calling this girl a name like that or seeing her like that, although you yourself seem to be more than a little sensitive to “name-calling” later in the thread. In sarcastic contributions to your own thread, you’ve questioned this woman’s intelligence, so just go ahead and call her a jackass - but sorry, you can’t have it both ways.

Deeps: I don't guess anything, I figure she's a lovely girl with her head screwed on straight....straight on her pretty ass!".

Well as long as you’re not speculating on anything…….

Deeps: My guess is that there will be some people in the govt pissed with David Miller over this one.

Well, my guess is that some will continue to split hairs in regards to semantics and offer self-rightous, sarcastic diatribes and self-serving anecdotes in response to dissenting argument. Shame.

[ollie]

I think this thread has gotten waay too rightious. She's a beautiful, smart girl who won an international contest, partly based on looks. (For the record, I don't think there's anything sexual about it. Sexy and sexual are different ideas all together in my book). Now you're getting all upset because you think she shouldn't be able to cut a ribbon at a Thai festival?

C'mon. If you're gonna play the "It's no big deal" card at least be honest about what it is. People watch these shows for eye candy and nothing more.

[Deeps]

Are we all having fun still?

This has been informative. Yah?

I am in the pursuit of sexual equality and it seems that more often than not it doesn't manifest itself.

I believe that there are a lot of men and women that have warped views of sexuality. These views are fostered and are allowed to fester because of a myriad of condoning actions taken by many groups, individuals, companies, and governments.

I think a couple people in this thread say "where does it stop? It's just a ribbon or it's innocent enough that there will be no direct side effect if she is allowed to open up the prestigious Thai food fest."

I say "Where does it start?" It seems that so much inaction in the pursuit of sexual equality goes on everyday "Maxim on the front of every newstand so little boys can wonder why their grade 5 girlfriend isn't stacked like carmen-elctranderson-milano-liu" that a step in the opposite direction and a public one at that would be a small victory and one I would gladly take.

I guess that's where it comes from. It's easy to think that I am uptight or whatever, but I am really frustrated with what I see these days and I wish more people would be in the same boat as me. Maybe this Nathan Phillips Square debate isn't the perfect place to soap-box or whatever, but the thought of the government giving the finger to the questionable-at-best beauty contest mentality was a refreshing change from the debauchery of the every day!

Deeps

[AD]

"People" aren't the judges that determine the winner though right? And if people show up to see a beautiful woman, and return home with a message about combatting poverty or aids, well, where is the downside in that?

AD

[AD]

but the thought of the government giving the finger to the questionable-at-best beauty contest mentality was a refreshing change from the debauchery of the every day!

Deeps

The thought of government interfering with anything outside of government is a scary thought at best Deeps. It's not refreshing, it's borderline fascist.

AD

[MarcO]

I simply give the average person more credit than is being suggested here.

David Beckham may be uber-hunky but I don't believe for a second all women feel that men should all look just like him, or peg him as an example, a goal to be attained. Society is more sophisticated than that. And if they wanna check him out, I hope they really enjoy themselves.

Me, I'm more of a Scarlett Johanssen fan myself.

[Deeps]

It's not that Calamity Jane is being more diligent in this respect, it's simply that she is being obnoxious and condescending in stating what is, in the end, only her opinions - nothing more, nothing less.

Dude it's misquoted .... it left out the other gender in the AM 640 quote....bradm was asking and I asked him to look up above to the other posts that aren't trying to bend shit like a radio for men station was.

No, your heading is clearly in the first person. I believe you called her a jackass and are trying to twist this around more than a little because you got called on it. There is absolutely nothing in the original article that would suggest anyone in City government is calling this girl a name like that or seeing her like that, although you yourself seem to be more than a little sensitive to “name-calling” later in the thread. In sarcastic contributions to your own thread, you’ve questioned this woman’s intelligence, so just go ahead and call her a jackass - but sorry, you can’t have it both ways.

If you were to be insulted by anyone like she was when she was barred from NPS you would feel like you were called a jack-ass right?

The title of this post may point to my negative feelings on her participation in a contest I think shouldn't even exist, this is true, BUT again I stand firm that it wasn't in first person and only intended to reflect the slap in the face she got....she was disrespected and in my view called a jack-ass by the city of Toronto.

Are you calling me a liar?

As for her head screwed to her ass.....that's just funny and does speak to my feeling that I think anyone who subjects themselves to a score-card that reflects the quality of their ass has their priorities all f'd up.

Deeps

[Booche]

"I think anyone who subjects themselves to a score-card that reflects the quality of their ass has their priorities all f'd up."

You going to take that paan?

[ollie]

"People" aren't the judges that determine the winner though right? And if people show up to see a beautiful woman, and return home with a message about combatting poverty or aids, well, where is the downside in that?

My contention is that I don't think people are leaving with that message.

I'm not criticizing beauty pageants. I just don't think that they have any moral highground. Wait, maybe I just did.

[Deeps]

I simply give the average person more credit than is being suggested here.

Society is more sophisticated than that.

I wouldn't give society that much credit yet.

Surround yourself with virtually any group of early year college males, A reasonably large demographic I think you'll agree?, and listen to their conversations.

Fag this, she must be a dyke that, broad that, nice tits, yeah did you f that bitch?, hey honey nice ass! Yip yip kegstand!

We've got problems, the way our boys are being brought up, and even though there has been progress (I think the general attitudes and respect shown by the men of this board are decent examples) there is much work to be done and it has to start somewhere.

Deeps

Edited July 20, 2005 by Guest

[MarcO]

Deeps: Dude it's misquoted .... it left out the other gender in the AM 640 quote....bradm was asking and I asked him to look up above to the other posts that aren't trying to bend sh!t like a radio for men station was.

My point was any display of diligence is made moot by the condescending responses to both hamilton and AD’s responses. They deserve better than to be told they “don’t get it” or should look something up in the dictionary.

Brian is a nice person. How do I know this? Simple: I know him and I feel I have good judgement. I like you too, Deeps, so you know I have good judgement heh heh! But how insulting that he should be told that he “thinks” he’s a nice guy by someone based on his rather reasonable contribution to a public debate!

Deeps: If you were to be insulted by anyone like she was when she was barred from NPS you would feel like you were called a jack-ass right?

well, maybe, but that’s projecting. I am not calling you a liar – you know I don’t see you that way Steve, and I sincerely apologize if that’s how it sseemed – but I will suggest that was an overly strong interpretation of the City’s position on this young woman, and that it reads as something other than your explanation of it. It, after all, set the tone.

But what I find curious in your explanation is that on the one hand you say:

Deeps: I stand firm that it wasn't in first person and only intended to reflect the slap in the face she got....she was disrespected and in my view called a jack-ass by the city of Toronto.

but then you go on to essentially call her a jackass anyhow for subjecting herself to beauty pageants.

The funny thing is, we probably don’t disagree on the subject at hand as much as you think. I don’t buy Maxim, I don’t watch beauty pagaents, and I don’t really want to hang around with dudes who get all worked up about that stuff like little boys. I’m just more frustrated at the level of debate.

[Calamity Jane]

"People" aren't the judges that determine the winner though right? And if people show up to see a beautiful woman, and return home with a message about combatting poverty or aids, well, where is the downside in that?

I'm going to give it one last shot....

and for the record, Marc-O, I prefer "uppity bitch who should be put in her place" to "she is being obnoxious and condescending in stating what is, in the end, only her opinions"

For SHAME for sure!

okay AD, here's my last ditch effort:

ONE problem with continually touting a beauty ideal (unattainable by most women) is that it creates lethal eating disorders in girls as young as 8 friggen years old!!

Aren't you and other men a little insulted by the implication that you can only be engaged on such issues as poverty and AIDS while oogling T & A?? But sad as it is, that's the state of things today.

And sorry Marc-O and Hamilton, fact is, most men never will get what it's truly like to be a woman in this world. Often when men do "get it" is when they start to raise daughters. I tell you it sure kicked my own feminism into higher gear. So feel free to also tell me I have no idea what it's like to have a penis (though luckily I can buy reasonable facsimilies!!!) but don't deny my (and other women's) REALITY of the world!

[Kaidy Mae]

You all have a lot of great points both for and against this decision. I can see validity in both sides, yet I still see pageantry as freakish and often degrading. I think this particular situation has been blown way out of proportion. I can understand the "so just because she once wore a two-piece on stage she can't cut a ribbon at a Thai fest" arguement. However, Toronto is the multicultural mecca of Canada. MANY cultures would take offence to such a spectacle as The Miss Universe Pageant. Ultra PC? Probably. Trying to keep everyone happy? I sure think so. We are trying to be inclusive here right? I wouldn't mind her being there, but if I had an 11 year old daughter I may feel different about it. I'm hoping that when that day comes that even average looking women will have a voice. *sigh*

What I find interesting is that when a woman (Calamity Jane) finally did chime in on this thread she was meant with hostility from some of you. "Obnoxious"? You guys did want a woman's opinion, right? How dare people take offence because said opinion doesn't coincide with their own. If a woman (and a liberal one such as Calamity Jane) feels uncomfortable with the bikini parade disguised as humanitarianism, then I believe there is something wrong with it.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

I’m just more frustrated at the level of debate.

Fair enough, MarcO. Chalk another one up for the 2-dimensionality of this medium. I think you're right - a face-to-face debate would see (I'd hope!) more agreement than acrimony. (I won't comment on what booze might do to that, of course .

But incidentally, where's Lazlo on all this?

[TomFoolery]

Lazlo's busy putting a string bikini on his blind jockey's golden retriever.

[AD]

okay AD, here's my last ditch effort:

ONE problem with continually touting a beauty ideal (unattainable by most women) is that it creates lethal eating disorders in girls as young as 8 friggen years old!!

Aren't you and other men a little insulted by the implication that you can only be engaged on such issues as poverty and AIDS while oogling T & A?? But sad as it is, that's the state of things today.

Well, to be fair, beauty pagaents don't create eating disorders. Insecurities in young girls create eating disorders, and i don't know the real reason, but yes I suspect the 'beauty ideal' is a part of it, but not the be all and end all. I think parenting and general disposition go a lot further in how girls perceive themselves.

I'm not, as you say, insulted by the implication that you can only be engaged on such issues as poverty and AIDS while oogling T & A? You're the only one making that assumption. If I wanna hear about AIDS and poverty, I'd go see Stephen Lewis (again). But if a beautiful woman talks to me about AIDS and poverty, of course I will listen. Miss Universe, while a big cash cow for the corporation that runs it, has some good goals and objectives. They want to raise awareness, and by having a popular figurehead as the spokesperson, they can fill the seats to get the message out. See principles of marketing and promotion 101.

And for the record, when she speaks at events like this, she's not wearing pasties and a thong. She's dressed respectfully. So no-one is oogling T&A as you suggest, they're listening to and watching a woman speak. When I look at my business-clothes-dressed female boss, am I oogling her T&A, or am I just looking at her because that's what you do when someone is talking to you?

AD

[Calamity Jane]

Kaidy Mae--- I LOVE you gal!!!

thanks sis!, your support has made me stop shaking a little bit.

[AD]

If a woman feels uncomfortable with the bikini parade disguised as humanitarianism, then I believe there is something wrong with it.

But what is your opinion?

If everyone is concerned about equality of the sexes, why must the woman's voice automatically be correct, simply because of her gender?

AD

[mister slippery]

What I find interesting is that when a woman (Calamity Jane) finally did chime in on this thread she was meant with hostility from some of you. "Obnoxious"? You guys did want a woman's opinion, right? How dare people take offence because said opinion doesn't coincide with their own. If a woman (and a liberal one such as Calamity Jane) feels uncomfortable with the bikini parade disguised as humanitarianism, then I believe there is something wrong with it.

Very well put.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

feel free to also tell me I have no idea what it's like to have a penis

That too is another discussion. What guy has never been led to do (or at least seriously consider doing) something he wouldn't otherwise do because he's being played by someone who's got him by the pecker? Welcome to the world of adolescent boys (and probably a source of all sorts of older male resentment and defensiveness). I still hold that power sucks when one person holds it over another, be it man over woman, woman over man, whatever. What would it be like to give all that up? How many people would want to? Imagine a world....

Of course that's distressingly utopian thinking. It's like asking what the world would look like if people weren't mean and didn't treat one another like things to be used.

This isn't, either, to minimise the fact that far and away the most violence and abuse in the world is, in fact, heaped on women, and that that's what needs the most immediate redress, at every possible level. Jesus, I get furious when I think of the pathetic maximum sentence for rape, and that's for those cases that get called and struggle their way through an otherwise oblivious legal system. Wife-beaters were protected by law until not that long ago, and in too many countries still are. And then there's the whole issue of women - girls - who preemptively internalise violence through eating disorders, or later put themselves under the cosmetic knife, in order that they have a bit of power - there we are again - in the world.

I mean, it's all pretty fucked up.

[Kaidy Mae]

I'm not saying a woman's opinion is automatically correct. I do believe that it is quite valid in this particular situation however. It just came across to me that Calamity's opinions were disregarded by some. I thought the point of this debate was to get some discussion going...weigh in our male and female opinions and see how each other feels.

My opinion on this is certainly not black and white. I can see the merit in having Miss Universe speak at public events. I can see the importance of rewarding and recognizing smart women and men who are willing to educate and make a difference in the world. Why we can't prove our abilities fully clothed is beyond me.

Alas...I am not so naive to ignore the fact that she is a face and a marketing tool for a corporation's identity. Yes, that's right...she speaks for "The Donald". LOL Read about it here!*

My personal favourite part:

Donald Trump, famous for bedding and marrying beautiful women, has made it clear that he wants beautiful women in the Miss Universe contest this year, and is not especially interested in their college board scores, their abilities on various musical instruments, or their stated commitment towards working with crippled children after they win Miss Universe.

Hmmmm, sounds progressive.

Deb, I know you to be one of the most kind, gentle, independent, confident and downright fun ladies that I know. Take a deep breath sister.

*Disclaimer: This is only one person's opinion - nothing more, nothing less.

Edit to add: Sorry AD, I got a little side tracked there. *blush* My point was that even though a little exhibitionism doesn't bother me, it still does bother quite a few women. Hell, on a subconscious level I'm sure it affects me more than I know. I don't mean to say that we should censor everything that a sector of society may take issue with. BUT, when an event such as the Mr. & Miss Universe competitions amplifies stereotypes, it can be very counter-productive.

I know supermodels and Madison Avenue are not 100% responsible for eating disorders. Largely peers contribute to each other's sense of "beauty". Parents also contribute to self esteem. However, to say that magazines and the objectification of women do not contribute to eating disorders seems a little blind to me. I know an incredible 9 year old with a loving, supportive family who is slowly killing herself through malnutrition. Try convincing her that tomato soup won't make her fat and not see the connection while eying up the magazine racks in the supermarket checkout.

[Deeps]

Brian is a nice person. How do I know this? Simple: I know him and I feel I have good judgement. I like you too, Deeps, so you know I have good judgement heh heh! But how insulting that he should be told that he “thinks” he’s a nice guy by someone based on his rather reasonable contribution to a public debate!

I once thought I was a "nice guy" and then when I was asked to look a little closer....as I believe Calamity Jane is asking Hamilton to do.

I realized I had some pretty strange stuff bred into me.

I felt like I had been lied to and felt embarassed of myself. Once that wore off I took to deprogramming a lot of the stuff I had taken in and adopted in my youth.

It took a carving like the one Hamilton (who is an awesome guy) got, for me to realize that I hadn't evolved enough.

It takes some strong language sometimes to move this kind of stuff along!

Well put Calamity, break enough eggs and it'll be omlette time some day!

Deeps

Edited July 20, 2005 by Guest
I'm not a good spellir tooday

[Calamity Jane]

Deeps -- when did you change your signature line?

that line has been running through my head this whole time --priceless!

glad we can still hang on to our sense of humour, eh?

peace out, Deb

(for my mental health, I will now abstain from this thread)

[Deeps]

(for my mental health, I will now abstain from this thread)

I hope this is temporary....this is a good place to spread your word.

You've got everyone's hearts on your side and some folk who are willing to decipher your strong words.

Not an easy topic in the least, but it won't get easier if you run.

Deeps