State of the......

[Velvet]

I googled the speech today and read it. I couldn't believe how positive it was; I really started thinking there was a possibility that Bush had turned over a new leaf - I was honestly amazed at how much focus he was putting on health care and stopping AIDS in Africa and all kinds of environmental promises. Either that or he was unashamedly lying through his teeth.

Then he started talking about Saddam and his WMD's. I thought, "Wha?," scrolled to the top and realised I was accidentily reading his State of the Union from early 2003.

Yup, lying through his teeth.

[Deeps]

I see many of the points outlined in response to my comment and for bringing out of the wood-work Biggest Fan my rant has served it's purpose.

Seriously though, I think that the lack of altruism in the American initiatives in the middle east is what's disturbing to us all. I agree that it's messed up to put these tyrants in power and then strip them down seemingly without provocation, but at the end of the day, you've got some a-holes without power anymore and that works for me. Well, that and stopping this bizarre cylce.

Building a country in the image of the gluttonous US image too is scary as all heck, but again I'd take that over the oppressed freedom of speech and abscence of adequate jurisprudence routine.

Didn't Bush speak to America's need to move to more sustainable energy sources in his speech and sever the ties on foreign oil? I thought that to be a positive step forward.

Anyway, my rant as they tend to be some time, over simplifies much, but I guess the real questions are .....

What do we do with situations where our universal governer (the UN) has for all intents and purposes become merely an ideal that rarely comes to fruition?

Act unilaterily or sit down and pretend nothing needs to be done?

Here we go attempting nuclear weapons talks with Iran; that didn't seem to solve much in Iraq. I wonder if we'll see the nations that were so opposed to an Iraqi invasion sing the same tune if this Iranian thing escalates to that point?

UN Watchdog eyes Iranian Situation

Egypt asks Hamas to recognize Israel.

Saddam abscent for trial.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

I'as far from a specialist in the workings of the UN as you're likely to get, but I do know that in spite of the ridiculous top-heaviness of it all, its points of corruption, its inefficacy, and all the rest, as an institution, it's an important thing, and if the concept of parliament - a place where people with different interests get together to talk them through instead of hitting one another - is to continue to mean anything, it's something to hang on to. Plus they do enormously important and valuable work on the micro-level that rarely gets talked about.

But I don't think you're talking about doing away with the UN, are you Deeps? What I see going on is that they're continually hamstrung by the US, who, when not just skimping on their dues (to the tune of billions of dollars), are overriding them completely and generating all sorts of chaos that they then claim they're the only ones capable of resolving.

[MarcO]

What do we do with situations where our universal governer (the UN) has for all intents and purposes become merely an ideal that rarely comes to fruition?

We work together to amend and strengthen the UN. We certainly don't let Cowboy George set the standard and "lead the way" because he's not willing to play ball on International Treaties and flout global conventions on Acts of War. He and his administration are not to be trusted. Make no mistake about it: these are horrible, dangerous and evil men.

Here we go attempting nuclear weapons talks with Iran; that didn't seem to solve much in Iraq. I wonder if we'll see the nations that were so opposed to an Iraqi invasion sing the same tune if this Iranian thing escalates to that point?

Separate standards of objection at play, here. The US led the way in blatantly fudging the facts on Iraq and that's offensive, sick and dangerous. Iran however is clearly a bit more cut and dry.

[Birdy]

i personally don't think GW knows how to end the war. he's pledged a whole bunch of crazy stuff to the world at large and now perhaps is beginning to realize he just doesn't have the resources to pull it all off. thank god. in my mind mission was accomplished the day saddam sat in front of a judge. the rest should be left to the people of iraq, not the american armed forces.

as for cultural imperialism, this is one of the scariest facets of warfare and where things 9 times out of 10 get carried away. Steer clear, that's all i have to say. we've already had one ohio.

[Birdy]

without US support the UN loses all legitimacy. the key to the balance of power isn't france, germany, italy, canada, etc., it's the USA and the UK.

how can we work together to strengthen the UN, when we can't even work together on foreign policy in general?

[guigsy]

Iran however is clearly a bit more cut and dry.

i dunno.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

without US support the UN loses all legitimacy. the key to the balance of power isn't france, germany, italy, canada, etc., it's the USA and the UK.

how can we work together to strengthen the UN, when we can't even work together on foreign policy in general?

That's the question. You can't coerce people to sit together and communicate uncoercively. Still worth the effort, though, I'd think.

I'm sure there's something in Gandhian ethics that might be of value here, though, although it would take some pretty sharp and patient minds with access to power. How do you deal with beligerent drunks at a party? I've always felt the US carried on like the drunken frat-boy of the world.

[Davey Boy 2.0]

...drunken frat boy on coke, I'd add.

I think the key is in shifting the 'merican people away from their addiction to truthiness...

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Drunken frat boy on coke and God, to boot.

I love "truthiness" . Now I have a new comeback for some of the odd and hopelessly untenable claims that come up in my Ethics class.

[Biggest Fan]

Do the 'ends justify the means'? No.

Is it nice to see Saddam behind bars? Yes.

Do I pray that Iraq can heal itself? Yes.

Do I want 'Cowboy George' being out in front? No.

Should the UN be out in front? Yes.

Is Iran a big deal? Yes.

Do I believe in 'political sovereignty'? Yes.

Do I have a clue about what to do in Iran? No.

I guess my one big fear is a Hitler type situation in which the world sits by and watches.

Where does 'political sovereignty' end and madness begin. One of the most troubling times in my life was the madness that was Serbia/Sarajevo.

[Biggest Fan]

-and- 'Deeps' if you are part of 'what the thunder said'... Awesome Stuff. The show on Archive is a great listen.

[StaggerLee]

Yeah I checked out that show too and it sounds great, you guys should hit the east coast sometime.

As for the current subject, I think you're way oversimplifying Deeps. After all, your statement:

"I have a bigger problem with countries who elect governments steeped in outdated religious dogma, and perpetuate awful view points with regard to the rights of women and social planning"

...could easily be made about the U.S.

Sure there are countries that are far worse in terms of women's rights, etc. than the States, but you don't have to go back very far in US history, or and Western nation's history for that matter, to find examples of pretty miserable attitudes and policies. It seems awfully self-righteous for the North/West to force democracy down the throats of the South/East, especially when Northern/Western culture is full of hypocrisy and inequality. There are better ways to spread good ideals than dropping bombs.

[payce-ley]

was going to mention earlier that anyone who thinks women in Islamic nations have it worst hasn't been to family court lately... a tyrant is a tyrant and they exist in every society and under the guise of every religion... a lot of muslim women pity many western women's situations (cheating husbands, rampant divorce rates, deadbeat dads)... many muslim men are fiercely dedicated to their wives and families is how they see it

to me the whole thing comes down to you can twist just about anything to look evil, and drive the point home if you keep repeating whats evil like a mantra in the news "911, 911, 911... axis of evil, axis of evil, axis of evil"... but fundamentally who are we to tell other people how to live, why do we have the right to say that they are incapable of governing themselves (quite the insult)

bin laden killed 3000 americans to try and keep mcdonald's from popping up on every corner, across from the mosque, in islamic nations... bush killed 200,000 iraqi's in retaliation (a country which had nothing to do with bin laden)... iran threatens and insults israel (nothing new at all in the middle east)... america says either you're with us or your against us, putting a gun to the head of the rest of the planet... as far as iran nuclear program goes, if you wanted to build a bomb why not just use your oil money to buy plutonium from russia's poorly guarded stocks?.. america has attacked 2 countries in the past 3 years, but no one raises an eyebrow over their nuclear capabilities (mostly because we know you can't turn a dollar on radioactive soil, which is reasuring)... no muslim wants israel nuked... it's their holy land (the cause of all the conflict)

at least bush's speach delivery seems to have evolved from the level of chimpanzee... he was almost articulate during the state of the union... if only he didn't stare with glazed eyes and speak of god like they have regular discussions... when I think of world threats first I think of the states, then of china... the civil wars of the middle east aren't my business... I'm not against chasing bin laden, he called it onto himself and has never denied accountability... but I'm against toppling select oil rich regimes under the guise of chasing bin laden

[ggrtrhhrtgg]

ok, this may seem redundant, but I implore you to just take a second and think about this situation....

Hurricane Katrina did alot of damage to the city of New Orleans, physically, emotionally, socially, and fiscally---I think this would be quite accurate....

the companies that were given the contract to rebuild the city of New Orleans, (American based companies in case you are wondering) have hired foreign workers for small wage and no benefits to rebuild the city of New Orleans! Holy fucking shit!

think about that for just a moment please!

The U.S. unemployment rate is sky high!!!

I would go out on a limb and suggest that the unemployment rate for those that are former citizens of New Orleans is incredibly high....

Now think!!!

The government of the U.S. made comments in the "state of the union address" that they were going to stimulate jobs for the unemployed.

Ok!!

A company is given the contract to rebuild one of the most recognized cities in the U.S. and they are hiring foreign workers, eventhough their are millions of unemployed in the U.S.

Why? To save fucking money... Why??

To make money for their fucking stock holders!!!

I would go out on a limb and suggest that this is one of the negative and EXTREMELY SIGNIFICANT characteristics of the political philosophy of conservatism.

I really wish those who are not benefiting from investment would understand the simple concepts of politics before they vote.

that is my two cents.

[Deeps]

was going to mention earlier that anyone who thinks women in Islamic nations have it worst hasn't been to family court lately... a tyrant is a tyrant and they exist in every society and under the guise of every religion... a lot of muslim women pity many western women's situations (cheating husbands, rampant divorce rates, deadbeat dads)... many muslim men are fiercely dedicated to their wives and families is how they see it

to me the whole thing comes down to you can twist just about anything to look evil, and drive the point home if you keep repeating whats evil like a mantra in the news "911, 911, 911... axis of evil, axis of evil, axis of evil"... but fundamentally who are we to tell other people how to live, why do we have the right to say that they are incapable of governing themselves (quite the insult)

bin laden killed 3000 americans to try and keep mcdonald's from popping up on every corner, across from the mosque, in islamic nations... bush killed 200,000 iraqi's in retaliation (a country which had nothing to do with bin laden)... iran threatens and insults israel (nothing new at all in the middle east)... america says either you're with us or your against us, putting a gun to the head of the rest of the planet... as far as iran nuclear program goes, if you wanted to build a bomb why not just use your oil money to buy plutonium from russia's poorly guarded stocks?.. america has attacked 2 countries in the past 3 years, but no one raises an eyebrow over their nuclear capabilities (mostly because we know you can't turn a dollar on radioactive soil, which is reasuring)... no muslim wants israel nuked... it's their holy land (the cause of all the conflict)

at least bush's speach delivery seems to have evolved from the level of chimpanzee... he was almost articulate during the state of the union... if only he didn't stare with glazed eyes and speak of god like they have regular discussions... when I think of world threats first I think of the states, then of china... the civil wars of the middle east aren't my business... I'm not against chasing bin laden, he called it onto himself and has never denied accountability... but I'm against toppling select oil rich regimes under the guise of chasing bin laden

Well put. Currently looking at our society as I sit at my desk.

I gotta unplug.

Deeps

[Freak By Night]

at least bush's speach delivery seems to have evolved from the level of chimpanzee... he was almost articulate during the state of the union...

But he still thinks it's "nucular".