THOUGHTS FROM A PROMOTER THAT you might like to re

[Marky]

you know it really means alot to see this kind of support, you know i am trying to bring this huge jazz thing to town and the support from that has been great. I have spoken with a lot of journalists and we set up a email thingy on my jazz website for people to reply which is really cool. BUT to be perfectly honest with you, my heart lies in this scene. This is the music that i love and the bands i bring in are a reflection of my tastes and interests. I have to tell you that support in this scene is so crucial to the scene growing and gaining the high profile and sometimes even (just starting out) bands that we all want to see. I'm sure there is no shock to any one that is in some way associated with the business side of this scene that bringing these jambands accross the border is often at times tricky and moreso financially scary. I'm in a position to really expand the scene in toronto and hopefully a little bit outside of toronto (without stepping on any toes) These bands are fore the most part established south of the border which transaltes into them wanting more money than they may be able to produce. IT is a hard thing to manage becuse a show like charlie hunter/DJ Logic will sell out the knitting factory every time, and may or may not produce good numbers here. It is hard to get these acts at a fee that doesn't create a relatively high break even. I am fully committes to this scene and trust me have, i have major plans to expand it and will hopefully have some great announcements coming up soon, but financially it is hard to sustain and to progress it up to the trey band, dead, vida blue level without the total support of the fans of this scene. You know i would hope that the AGP show next week brings out alot of people and rightly so it should. They are and i share this feeling with many of my US counterparts one of the hottest and brightest up an comers in this scene and for a chance to see two sets for ten bucks with a great opener at such an intimate venue like the 360 is a great opportunity to have an awesome rocking night. But if the show comes out mediocre it will deter great groups like this from wanting to come back and make the effort trust me it is a definite effort to cross over here especially as the bands get bigger and bigger. I am in NO WAY saying that you should come out and buy tickets to my shows just to support the scene but if you like the bands and would like to see this trend of more consistent musical events north of the border, make the drive or put in the effort to try and make the shows and keep the scene expandng. JAMBANDS.ca is a great example of how a tight network of fans can get together and express what they love and their views on the scene. I tell you that i am trying to really put together Some HUGE shows for the not so far future but it is going to take the support of the scene to make them happen. I would love to hear your opinions on my feelings here. I have spoken with many people in the scene as well as other music generes and i am always love to talk music and business with whoever is interestd. It is really crazy to see how a scene like the one here and the jazz scene are in similarity. very tight knit and very committed to keeping it thriving outside of the festival season. Let me know what you guys and girls think about this stuff and together i bet we can keep this scene and the music growing and make this city so rocking!!

[bokonon]

you're long winded.

but poignant.

and right.

how about making a scene in k-w, there is not much jamband action here and there are lots of heads and i don't think there is a promoter for this scene here.

[SaggyBalls]

if nobody ever says anything even marginally critical that nobody's going to push to improve the scene. Our players deserve to be making a living from their music and if they don't push out and play better (everyone can) and get people to look up and listen - especially the indie rock and 'cultural arts' critics loving the scene we'd have a lot more clout in the industry and we'd notice that the audience isn't just made up of hippies. I like the audience but we need to always be improving...doing something special and I think that you need criticism to have that happen. sure a party's cool with chips and dip but i remember that all my highschool friends would rave about my parties when mom baked buns, made chili, and put out meatballs. how do we make out events heartier?

for example...last year my fave band was Blue Quarter for summer shows. this year, what's happened to them?? well they haven't toured and their music sounds a bit more polished but absolutely nothing unexpected at the El Mocambo. I've noticed a lot of people not saying anything other than 'blue quarter are cool' - which they are - but look at the spread those guys have even just for example - a tight breaks heavy drummer, a solid energetic bassist, and a totally phat chapman stick player.

a chapman stick player could easily be a stand alone unit but what does olivier do? play a lot of notes and use his filters quite well. cool sound but there's so many musical directions that band could go all the time...take it down, bring it up. they could totally play puppetmaster to you stinky marionettes. Sorry if i offended anyone's taste or musical sensibilities - i understand i can't expect everything from everyone - but these guys are totally smart and loads of fun. apart from a slightly (yes, slightly) darker thematic tone and stage sound there was no change.

just one of the bands that seems to be on a plateau.

why a plateau and not a stagnation? I think it's cause these bright gentlemen (and a few ladies) need to be able to make music for a living. not have to rely on a day job or alter-ego to make their money to be able to go and lose money touring, thus giving them a jaded outlook on their much adored craft.

they're not starting to suck yet. thank god! And am i ever happy the burties stirred things up again. they seemed to stagnate for a bit when there was all that silly internet drama(anybody else remember).

I saw JSB play at the elmo not too long ago and it was fun - a jam (and song) packed night - but anyhting that suprised me? sad to say, but nope.

that's not to say that i didn't appreciate the night with Jimmy Swift, Stephen Franke, and the other bands but it was a party more than a breathtaking night of incredible music. it was a totally fun party scene.

What happens when you go to see a bigger act? not just a party. there's something special. something big. a showstopper, something to write about incredibly favourably.

I'm not trying to come off as ragging on the scene or complaining that something's not good because hey - i think that the Jam Scene's talent is fantastic. I'm always impressed but rarely as stunned as I am when i see a bigger show.

I loved the slip in montreal. that show was breathtaking. that's a pretty special group. that's not to say that i haven't had moments like that at canjam shows. i have. but for the most part it's not like every time i see the slip (even though that's only 3 times). if you want to make money touring you have to be able to get paid fairly for a gig and to be honest, most bands can't.

the places these bands can play is limited mostly due to notoriety and draw issues. a 300 seat venue can rarely pack it in every night. it's hard to get people out during the week, and even on weekends there's a lot of competition for entertainment.

how do we get people enthused in live music in general is the real question - not how good are these guys or why aren't the shows as good? how do we get these guys paid more so they stress out less and can put their all into their awesome music.

maybe get a terrorist group together to bomb dance clubs...oh sh!t...if this ever happens i'm implicated...

...as long as they're empty the owners get a settlement...maybe they'll make concert halls...

i think there are a lot of factors that go into a cool show but there's also a lot of factors that go into keeping artists living large - it costs a lot of money to tour and cut records and publicize and live. a lot of the musicians in the scene are growing up and likely want to settle down or work towards that eventually, and you can't afford to tour the country if you have to feed a kid.

i'd be way happier to be able to see one JSB show a season if it was the case of a bigger show, a pricier ticket, and a crazier audience. i think that the guys in the band would appreciate being able to make more money even if they still played smaller shows every so often to be able to tour here and there. I'd miss the old days but i'd appreciate the huge show.

right now there are few jambands that can draw 5-10,000 people at a decent sized venue in canada.

I just wish things were better. they're really not SO bad...but there's always room for improvement.

and right now it's an issue of advancement rather than improvement.

it's like these bands have been playing for years and desperately deserve a raise. how do we get it to them?

how do we get people going out to shows and packing places?

maybe it's the case of people that go to shows are going to have to go poster or flyer or promote for free tickets.

if there was a toronto show a band could get 20-30 people flyering and get a massive turnout...or get a team to request songs on all the college radio stations for a free CD or a compliation of shows or something.

it's time consuming work that most scenesters don't have the time to do.

it's hard. i know the performers in the scene have the ability. does the scen have the ability to bring out the performers' abilities?

is it the scene's responsibility?

who's gonna take responsibility? it sure won't be the club kids that dont' care about their entertainment choices.

responsibility or not, if you want to see a show it's up to you.

let's get some more people to follow suit!

[Esau]

. I've noticed a lot of people not saying anything other than 'blue quarter are cool'

You don't get out too much I guess.

The best reviews about of the PJC BQ/Fat Cats show about BQ I have heard have been from folks who are not on this board.

I was canoeing up north so I couldn't make it,hence I have no comments about the bands current tour...

[show---whore]

I can tell you that BQ had the best set at evolve this year!!!

[Booche]

You know, its a tough fu©king market. DoubleB (bless his heart), saw a potential in Ottawa, and did his damndest, but there is something else that makes it all work.

I have learned a few things, and one of them is people have an entertainment dollar that can only be stretched so far. Those same people will gravitate to what they already *know* and *like* BUT are willing to take chances. We all get easily excited about 'killer' bands we read about, but in reality, if one of our *safe* bands are playing, most will use their hard earned cash to see them.

As far as I see it, the market can be overly-saturated in NO TIME with too many bands (the fall is a great example) in too little time, thus stretching our dollars far too thin, and making the bands/promoters little to no money. Heck, I am only talking about 5$ bands here, for the most part.

I guess the long and short of it is this:

Dont get overly-excited, play your cards right and realize there is competition. Find something *aside* from the bands that will draw people to the bar.

(alot of people that go out like cheap drinks. Try some kind of avenue. Sorta like getting dealt a King-Nine in Texas Hold'Em, if you catch my drift.)

[Sunshine]

I agree with Booche!

[elemeno]

its not up to "the scene" to support a show. if i like a band and i have the time and money i'll go. i'm not just going to go out to a show because it will help the scene along and possibly bring in new bigger bands.

i think some promoters should do their fu©king jobs and do some promotion type work for the show for once. and i'm not talking about having newrider hand out flyers for a show the night before. its like the promoters want "the scene" to do their dirty work.

its the same bands most of us have seen ten time over. for me it comes down to :what do you have thats new and what have you done for me lately(musically)?? when i say give me somehting new, i dont want some up and coming half ass basement band.

you want to enjoy my cash , earn it mother fu©cker!

[c-towns]

Why aren't we as a whole infiltrating all of our local hipster radio staions with mass requests for these bands we love? Maybe they dont even have the music, but we should get it to them and request that they play it.

[CyberHippie]

Hey Marky,

Thanks a lot for all your work on the Toronto scene, and getting some great acts up here!

I try to make it out whenever I have interest/time/money, I've been pretty absent this summer, but now that we are heading towards fall I hope to start making it out more.

It's great to see some of the bigger american acts hitting Toronto, and fall has always been a great season for shows!

This board is a great way to get the message out about shows, but I'd bet it hits only a small percentage of the Toronto heads. I think Postering helps a lot, dropping fliers off at indy stores like Rotate This and Ed's. Also get the message out to some of the cool radio shows on CIUT and CKLN.

Finally if you ever notice some shows aren't listed on jamaholic.com send me an email

[ggrtrhhrtgg]

you want to enjoy my cash , earn it mother fu©cker!

I'll have two eggs over easy with a side of hash browns.

[elemeno]

you want to enjoy my cash , earn it mother fu©cker!

I'll have two eggs over easy with a side of hash browns.

white or brown toast???

[zero]

To answer your question ctowns, and I'm being serious here, the reason that we don't bombard our college radio stations is that we are for the most part pot smoking hippies. The influence of amotivational disorder, typically known as burnout is a major factor I believe. I mean maybe I'm sort of joking but not really. It's like what Michael Moore says about the Republicans, they're up at dawn every morning trying to think up new ways to screw the Left while most Democrats don't even see that light of day (unless they've been up all night)- sound familiar. I mean there's a lot more to it but Marky is right to point out the challenges of big guarantees without a secure audience. I have a few other insights too:

- Lack of tour support. Because most artists are on niche, boutique type labels if at all there is rarely any tour support.

- Not enough profit centres. Additional revenues from sales of merchandise etc. are often not retained by the promoter. Also if you look at for instance pop punk usually these tours are sponsored by retailers like West 49 which market to that audience. As cool as free rolling papers are True Hemp is not gonna offset alot of costs.

- Audience is what could be called a niche vertical market. Often this is a good thing but in the absence of crossover mainstream appeal if the market is saturated or the date or location is inconvenient it can be a failure. Also there is an over reliance of the online jamband community which may in fact only represent a nominal swath of the heads out there (think of all the people you see at Phil and Friends and how they go right back into the woodwork after the show)

- Territoriality. Self explanatory really, it has to do with Cock Stars setting up cabals of apparent altruism. Okay less hyperbole.

[shitidiot]

I must say as a "Promoter" it's your job to get the people to come, not the bands or the scenes.

you must know your market! and in Toronto theres a very small jamband market. and in canada there is a very small jamband market. 1/10th of the population.

so if the TDB sell out the electric factory in philly at 2000, you can expect 200 in toronto.

there is no jamband scene here like there is in america.

there's no jamband radio.

every where is to far to drive.

driving in winter sucks.

just some thing i've learned working in the scene.

[whiteymuseum]

Isnt the beauty of the jamband scene that it has been able to succeed based almost entirely on an underground culture?

i mean Phish can draw 90,000 people for their last show without a commercial radio hit.

so if the argument is that the scene is drying up, does that mean the underground culture has lost some steam?

live music in general (not just the jamband scene) has taken a hard hit this year. numbers are down across the board (attendance, bar sales) yet costs continue to go up on the business owner.

this issue can be said not only across the region, but across entertainment/hospitality businesses in general. restaurants, movie theatres, hotels, clubs, bars, everyone is facing it.

gas is up, tuition is up, gov't funding is down, dairy products are up, inflation in general i believe is hurting the consumer more than the government wishes to acknowledge.

that is going to have an inevitable affect on show attendance.

all of that being said, has nothing to do with promoter abilities or the quality of the music.

[SaggyBalls]

why not invite charities to get involved and set up tables or get a share of any profits (if there are any) or to advertise their causes on the posters...if it's a greenpeace benefit show don't you think that more tree huggers would check it out if they didn't recognize the band? who's doing this? the canvassers could mention it to a few more people and then there'd be more work done.

i agree with kung. there've been a lot of times that i was too bust haulin off a bong to turn on the radio to hear the college radio show and judge whether or not it'd be a requestable time or not.

why not involve the radio stations in the shows? they'd love to have someone there to wave their banner and advertise for free, especially since students and openminded people are showgoers.

why not try to get some cross promotion? i'm sure the hotbox cafe would love to get some business free of charge if they give away some rolling papers and a pipe they paid 10 bucks to a glassblower for. a vegetarian restaurant would probably give a gift certificate for appetizers or something and you'd be able to put a flyer up or have handbills at the cash depending on the classiness of the place.

go to the colleges and universities and get in touch with the arts and fine arts faculties and see how your show could help them out somehow...u of t students get in for free? they'd help drink the bar dry and that'd give the promoter more clout in the service industry...his/her logo would be more recognizable and so would the band.

if you could cram 50 more people into a room that you'd normally get you've gotta realize that you might not ever have seen that door money anyway. the night would be better and everyone'd be happier.

cheap drinks are awesome but i tried that at elements and it didn't catch on...my friends could afford to drink more that's about it...tell the bar that if they get lucky or lakeport honey cases they only cost about 23 bucks. they could have cheap bottles. each case would save them about 10 bucks and they could charge .50 less and although the math works out poorly, the more you drink the more you want to drink...so you'd sell more. you could do a 3 for 9, 4 for 10 deal...jager nights?

I know some bands don't want an opener but there's always a chance for failure - even if it's a well known band.

local openers at least bring their friends and will get you some more faces to fill the bar early so bar hoppers won't leave cause they think it's dead inside.

start a line outside. don't let people in until there're a few people standing outside and don't let them all in...people will be curious and want to see what the hype is all about. i never tried this method but it works. i think it's silly but it generates numbers. don't do this so much in bad weather...that's just mean - unless it's warm rain and she's goe a white t-shirt on. give the bouncer discretion to allow complaining wet people a chance to dry up...

I agree with kung that these artists are niche, but i only agree with this because anything that's not mainstream is niche. this music, however long the jams are, is fun and danceable and already has a market. there're elements of so many genres in this scene and if you can target your show properly you could easily get more rockers out or more beats hippies out or you could get alternative radio rockers out. you just have to appeal to their sensibilities. that takes several media plans targeted at various radio stations and television stations and other media outlets for every show you promote. this is why good promotion is so hard to do.

it's incredibly difficult and time consuming to research the media in your market, especially in a place like toronto and the golden horseshoe. there are so many media outlets you have to target and you have to approach them differently. make different media releases...one to appeal to rockers, one to appeal to partyiers, one to appeal to students, and on and on.

don't forget about FAXING. i didn't have a fax machine but it's harder to delete a fax than an email. paper is always more tangible. that's why handbills work.

appeal to exclaim magazine and hipster media. they're the underground media sources that get the respect in this country. aws stupidly ironic as they try to be and cynical as they come off, persistence and comfortability with these people is key. Look at Kung. that guy screamed hipster. the more we fought with him the worse it was and when we were chill with him and had fun with his notions it was awesome. we drove him away(long live zero). don't drive the only legitimized niche media away from our scene. they loved king cobb steelie. whenever i hear that band i wonder 'who's THIS band? they sound new and jammy' - appeal to the serious side of things. it's hard but it's the only approach that's worked for me. the more we come off as hippies the more we'll be labelled hippies. They're 'indie' not hipster...there's a difference between their music image and their personal images. people realize that and don't seem to marginalize that crowd as much.

so there's an online jamband community...why not hit all the other online communities with show listings. hip hop kids like all sorts of music sometimes too...why not hit tribe? there are some boards that have a lot of users and they're totally viable customers too.

make a business plan for your company...get some investment and have money to publicize and promote with some good imaging. if people see slick posters or some advertising in NOW they won't think it was some grizly bearded guy that handed them a flyer when they were walking down queen the other day.

it's really difficult to do all of these things since promoters in canada don't really make a living from their work. i know you have day jobs or are struggling with life as it is. we all are. in time this scene can grow and become something a lot stronger than any other scene in Canada.

why not try to branch out and include some indie rock outfits in shows? you'd get more audiences together and having a good time together...why are there cliques anyway?

how do we get to the hippies in the woodwork? what do they do all day?? find them and you'll find more fans. give them a band to tour around with.

(maybe it IS true...maybe we SHOULD put on some deodorant(patchouli doesn't count).)

[zero]

Holy fu©k Beats you are on a run on tear lately. I have to admit I haven't even got through your last three posts on various topics because they just go on and on and on. And this is me talking.

[SaggyBalls]

have you noticed me post much of anything this summer??

nope.

I really want this scene to keep going on. the more promoters stay frustrated and don't feel supported the more likely we are to lose this wonderful gift.

I tried in London and that didn't work. nobody's taking up my slack - i dont' want to see this scene turn as lame as that crappy town. (i'm not talking about the cool people i know from london, it's all the other residents that take entertainment for granted)

I love music and the experiences i've found from live music. I just think that canada is not the ideal place for musicians to make a fair living from their craft and i know it could be.

heck, if it hadn't been for this scene i'd never be called longwinded.

So just see me as the kettle whenever you can everybody.

it just means that we have something in common.

[U.FProductions]

I have to admit I haven't even got through your last three posts on various topics because they just go on and on and on. And this is me talking.

dude you should have beats leave a msg on your phone. you can bet he'll take up all your space.

[whiteymuseum]

"Today people go for the band, yesterday they went for the bar" - A Friend

Do you think this is true?

I mean I do remember going to the clubs simply because there were bands playing. It didnt matter who it was. Me and friends just went to the places where the bands played. Cover charge or not.

[U.FProductions]

its not up to "the scene" to support a show

I've always focused on promoting shows to people out side of the market.

the upcoming slip tour. most of are promo effort will go into the indie scene and jazz scene these are the people that have never heard/scene the slip. these are the people that will make you money. you can count on the slip fans already showing up.

[secondtube]

I mean I do remember going to the clubs simply because there were bands playing. It didnt matter who it was. Me and friends just went to the places where the bands played. Cover charge or not.

I dont ever go to the bar, simply to 'go to the bar'. Never. Entertainment brings me to the bar. Cover charges are not important. Whats a coupla bucks? Most i've ever paid to get into a bar was 8-10 dollars, and those were some pretty amazing shows. One was actually at your bar. (the night we met :

Its probably been five years or so since i went to the bar, just to go for drinks, when no band was playing...

The entertainment is definately the most important.

[whiteymuseum]

Bands are why I'm in the bars today too. What I guess I failed to suggest more clearly was that a few years back attendance perhaps was better at shows because there was a healthy mix of people there "for the band" but also people there because it was the spot to generally hang out.

Music venues are not as much hangouts as they used to be. That may be a key to lesser attendance at shows.

[SaggyBalls]

i leave LONG messages...when i feel like calling someone i feel like talking. when i miss someone i still feel like talking.

it's funny.

i think people go to the bar and other people go to see the band. that's the explanation of the dance club culture. the people that go to bars and don't care if there's a band playing make up the majority of the population. bands are more expensive so the bars get sh!tty music to play to not confuse or challenge their drinkers.

the ginos and ginas don't understand music, they understand songs on the radio. generic bar rock is by far the most popular genre in canada because that's what pacifies the ignorant masses.

you know why? i blame the CRTC's canadian content legislation - more than a third of all songs on canadian radio must be canadian and the canadian songs that had to compete with the american pop hits had to be generic and palletteable. so we had all this crappy music satuarting the radio playlists. we didn't have nearly as much musical diversity on the radio as we could have and that's what has tainted the masses' sensibilities. not good music, but commercially viable music from canada. there were a few key acts that churned out some good tunes but for the most part it's one hit wonders and bands that make us laugh or groan when we hear them on the radio.

we didn't get much motown, soul, funk, folk, and a lot of rock and roll.

we got watered down popular music for the most part.

I had to listen to college radio to hear anyhting interesting since grade 7. I'm not the norm. sure i'm a freak. i love my taste in music and i'm sure a bunch of you might appreciate it as well. most average people need to hear music that they've heard before for some strange reason.

so that strange reason could be the root of the downfall of live music in canada. on one hand it's great for the canadian music industry - without that we'd never be able to record music in canada or have much support from the government to our musicians (how else do you gauge economic viability other than record sales and radioplay? how do we gauge who to give grants to?)

on the other hand it's turned many people out into the world with incredibly narrow taste margins.

it's very frustrating.

[zero]

Okay so I read through your whole post now Beats and concur. In terms of the woodwork challenge I started trying to address that by starting a database called Head Count, someone else stateside stole my idea. I faded on that though cough cough cough. It still seems like one of the best options is to get email addresses from people attending shows and share it with other promoters. There's some PIPEDA issues but fu©k it. The bigger challenge is building collaboration between indy promoters and mainstream or with one another. Also some of your remarks about partnering with charities etc. aren't likely worth the effort. Occasionally an issue or cause has a high enough profile to help with numbers but more often than not it doesn't help. These sort of relationships take time to build and often there is an expectation (a realistic one) to get something out of it on the part of the charity whether money or decent exposure. If you can't deliver on either it can leave a sour taste. With all of those suggestions actually, in terms of local media strategies and issuing releases, there is an investment in time that needs to be made and it is often extensive and for little reward. Still it needs to be done which goes back to the dilemma of breaking your hump for no return or even losses which as we all know is quite typical.