Only "loop-heads" need apply

[Spudly]

WARNING - BORING sh!t ALERT!

If you are not a gear head, save yourself and read no further...

I have read a couple of interviews from Nero Dave where he talks about using his phrase sampler for layering sounds to create textures to fill out the soundscape…I find that sh!t fascinating as I'm a bit of a trance junkie. Can't get enough of that repetitive beat! I have some challenges with it that I thought I would post on here to see if any other phrase sample junkies may have some ideas/thoughts to share…or maybe even Dave himself? (I think you are "pablo", no?)

So anyhow, I have a Line 6 DL-4, an awesome delay modeler (everyone seems to use these nowadays), which also has a 14 second loop sampler as a bonus. When I play *alone*, it works well enough…I set up the first loop (using a drum machine, keys, guitar, mic - anything 1/4" analog), which dictates the time, tempo, and feel - the "rythmic foundation"…and then add to it and/or jam over top. If I mix in anything I don't like, I have to start again from scratch because there isn't the freedom to delete the last entry. That's all fine and dandy.

But if I play with a drummer, I personally find it impossible to use for chording because you have to create the foundation loop EXACTLY in time with the drummer. If it is even a micro second off, it will throw the drummer out. I have seen Dr. Didg using a similar system and for some reason it works for him. He punches the box with his hand to start and stop the loop…he always starts the jam off this way and then the drummer joins in and it always seems to work for him…..? I've never seen his drummer make a "scrunchy face" like mine do…?

So Dave, if you are here, what pedal/rack do you use? Without getting too into it, how is it tied into the rest of your effects? Do you only use yours to create a "thickness" or drone ….if so, how do you then change key?

I'm somewhat embarassed to say that I haven't actually *caught* Nero yet (except for the last 10 minutes of your last Silvertone show….ended at midnight? wassup with that?), we are deprived out here on the west coast - hopefully not for long…And I haven't heard anything really recent or studio from you guys (come back out west and I'll raid your merch table) so don't have a firm grasp on how you employ loops today as maybe you've only recently incorporated loops into your live performances? Any thoughts, tricks or info is greatly appreciated….

Is there any products that will automatically sync to a click track or the kick? Or is it too difficult a task being that one is analog and one is digital?

Keller Willaims uses the "Jam Man" which is great because he can fade different loops in and out or drop them all together. It's big, and looks expensive. He doesn't use it at all when playing with other people, but man is he dialed into that thing when solo!

Trey uses a "Boomerang"….essentially 2 independent loop samplers that you can switch back and forth between…..you know that cool boomerang high pitch revolving note in Ghost? His loops don't need to be perfectly in time with the music because he uses it more as a trippy effect that goes in and out of time. I have trouble using it in this fashion as well…

I have tried to ask music store people about this and they generally just get a "glazed over" look in their eyes.... ::

xo

[bradm]

One place to check might be:

http://www.loopers-delight.com/loop.html

I believe Dave uses an Oberheim (now made by Gibson) Echoplex, along with some Line6 stuff, I'm sure.

Aloha,

Brad

[thatpatguy]

my buddy Dave uses the Boss RC-20 loop station.. sounds like exactly what you need: http://www.bosscorp.co.jp/products/en/RC-20/

[SaggyBalls]

WARNING: this is another one of my 'bloated' responses...if you don't have time for this come back to it on your day off...unless you think it could be baseless and poorly reasoned. no letters to editors here.

Well! You have to understand that nero's rhythm section is super solid. If you were to start a loop and have a drummer there's a chance your drummer likes to drift...that's my issue with players that don't play with loops. i'm not mad...it's just a new concept to a lot of people. I play bass and use a dl4 and i generally play with it on my own, layering lines over lines. I'm not happy with how it sucks tone...all this extra sound coming out of the same speaker, not allowing it to focus on one thing. on a whole it sounds full and cool but with my 1x12 combo (and even the huge stack i used recently) it gets too thick and you can lose definition.

I've had guitarists comment that some layers aren't discernable.

I really like the stuff i do with my looper - more for my own musical development at this stage. I understand opposing lines and even more than before the seperation of tone in the frequency spectrum. so if you're going to learn something important from my gist understand that when you loop and use different lines on similar pitches, unless you're trying to support the original line and thicken it up, you're going to lose articulation. I think this is more evident in the bass guitar because the difference between 2 low tones can be 100 hz where the difference between higher notes can be 2k. also, the hearing curve is imprtant to understand too. you can hear midrange sounds easier than low tone at the same volume - it's just how your ear works - so guitar loops are easier to layer, but if you want your parts to have a lot more oomph, remember to play in different parts on your neck.

also, try to get the expression pedal for your dl4 if you don't have it already. you can set it up to change the echo or mix or to add chorus and really be able to do different things with your tone and set the layers apart. I really appreciate the expression pedal feature on my delay settings...you can, for example, play around with the offsets on the rhythmic delay or the ducking on the dynamic delay or the # of repeats or the mix of signal...play with the tone of delay, change the resolution in the lo-res delay or go between head settings on the 'multi head' or just go between 2 very different settings...warp sounds if you have different dealy times...but the one echo that confuses the crap out of me is the multi-head. i think that's probably the most useful echo in the bunch but i haven't had the focus to really learn how to use it properly...instead of a constant repeat, you can get a repeat on the 2nd and 3rd of every 4 echoes...play around and fatten up phrases at key points...sort of like a call and return idea with echo.

but that's the delay side of the unit which i personally prefer and i'm a bass player!

I really think that if you want a looper that you can sync up to a drummer, the boss looper (rc-20?? i dont' know) can be quantized and it's not all that expensive when you realize the other options. I've seen marc rogers (toronto session guy, one of nick ali's favourite giggers for gruvasylum/electryc trio) use one and he sets it all up with the drummer so if the tempo shifts you can shift it to the drummer...less chance for confusion or trainwreck.

i heard that if you want to quantize on the fly, the looper sometimes shuts off...you'll have to find that out for yourself though.

unless you want to set a loop up as a click track for the band to play to (this can be very limiting for creativity, or if you have a different perspective, take away tempo as a variable to be able to control, thus allowing your creativity to focus on other avenues...tone, phrasing, space etc.) you might have a problem with the dl4

Personally, i think loopers are really cool but i think they can be a crutch for some players as well. Dave uses his loops exceedingly well. there's a reason though that Lauzon uses the echoplex as do drums and tuba and victor wooten. it's an awesome unit. i wonder what looper has the mest features and is the most flexible. just somethng to work towards i suppose. i know bill frisell uses a strange 'black box' and i'd like to know what he uses.

nice thread, btw. i love talking gear.

and i really hope that if i'm wrong about something or someone has a tip for me to get better tone, that they'd speak up. the tone sucking sometimes makes me not want to use any processing and I feel that i use my effects fairly tastefully. I like filters and my phaser(a spacey chorus sound...i use the EH worm) and wish it would come across more seamlessly.

[bouche]

I thought Dave used a DL-4 for looping. He's actually got 2 of them.

I finally got my own DL-4 after hijacking Dr.Hux's for the last year. I really enjoy it, but I haven't spent the time figuring it out as I should.

I think it just takes practice in getting the down beats right. You have to STOMP on it in to get the downbeat just right. If you do a gay little tap, you'll miss it. STOMP on the fugger.

[Pablo Sanchez]

you may want to be careful "stomping" that DL4. I've stomped the switches right out more times than I care to think about.

Over the last couple of months, I've ditched a bunch of gear including one of my dl4's. I now use just the echoplex for looping. It does have a quantize function but I've never used it. I've never been able to play "rhythm" loops although sometimes I do and just fade them out before they get really off. Sometimes you can have things going that are time based but move around, like the first cycle the loop lands on the 1 then maybe it lands on 3 the second pass then its beat 2 and its never bang on but its hitting different beats within the measure. That kind of thing is cool because you can't really predict it and it sometimes makes you sound more clever than you are. Other times it turns into a horrific mess that can be fixed quickly with a dip of the volume

If I could go back in time to when I bought my echoplex, I would have waited another 6 months and bought an Electrix Repeater. That looper is the sh!t hands down. Electrix is out of business but you can still get them on ebay for about 800 US.

The site that Brad mentioned is definitely worth checking out. Loop geeks galore is what it should be called.

[bouche]

Geez, and I thought a good stomp was all he needed.

I will take heed, and make my stomp less stompy. I just know it's got to be quick and dirty and since those electro-whizzes at line-6 call it a stomp box, the least they could do is let you stomp like an elephant.

You do need to check the nut around the switch from time to time and make sure they're tight. Otherwise, you'll be taking it apart to put the stomp switch back on.

I'm still waiting for the MM4 modulation modeller to show up in the mail.

[Spudly]

Wow, some great info here, thanks all!!! Maybe we should start a looper support group of sorts…?

It all sounds like an expensive and complicated style of playing to explore…..maybe I'll just keep it at a jamsterbation level…it is GREAT for practicing….who else is gonna play the same rythym piece for 30 minutes while you wank…?

Bouche, the Filter Modeller is sweet as well (that's the purple one?)….Mu-tron! But try not to get too Line6 dependant lest the "tone snobs" turn up their noses at you!

I've also got a Line6 2x10 Spider, so I have reached my limit…….

Beats: I know exactly what you are saying about the low end being a cramped space. I liken it to a house with many floors. The BASSment is more of a crawlspace.

I once saw a workshop at a festival that you would have severely dug called "Bass is Base" and featured Marc Friedman (Slip), Arne Livingston (Living Daylights, SKB, New Monsoon) & Tye North (Leftover Salmon, Commotion, etc) all on the same stage, just 3 basses jamming and taking Q&A. Victor Wooten was in the room as a spectator, so was Kai Eckhardt. It was awesome, but the jams were irrelevant, a muddled rumble, and they spoke about exactly what you are saying. FYI, one question asked was "Who's your biggest influence"….they all said "Well, Jaco, of course, but I also love….." All paid homage to Victor as well...

[SaggyBalls]

i love bass player stuff but i find most bass players goo and gaa over technique and celebrity far too much for my liking. (another guy that can slap faster than mario andretti...whoo-pee - if i'm gonna wank i'll put on some porn and tell my friends to go away for a half hour) I really like being able to take ideas from other instruments and apply it to what I'm doing...I like phrasing more than the bass players themselves. i guess that's a reason i've been told that I sound like a keys player and a percussionist from time to time, as well as a guitar player. when i can hit that phat pocket, though, i go mental! I absolutely love it. I see the bass more as an instrument and also love when bassists can destroy the idea of 'the role of the bass' from time to time. I also love a super tight bass player. sure jaco was the man but i can't stand to listen to his ego. I like chords, intervals, and harmonics but i never listened to much jaco...actually, i listened to no jaco before i started doing those things. I'm not that calibre but i'd way rather listen to paul jackson (herbie hancock 70's) than jaco. there's a reason a bouncer smashed his head open. you can hear it in his playing, the arrogant fu©ker. listen to joni mitchell with jaco and then with her folky bassists and although what jaco does is spot on, it takes away from the tone of Joni's arrangements and the focus of her songwriting(at least that's what i think...but it gets her groovin so it's at least good for that)

but i'm glad he did what he did. bass would be far different otherwise.

I like holding notes and playing high in the presence of another bass player. I also step up more than a lot of bassists when i play with a second bass...other bassists seem confused because they dont' know what to do and puss out when i give space and it just muddies up the intent, the strength, and the focus of the rhythm section...also second bass players tend to wank a when they aren't supposed to and don't listen for the melody or vox/lead and generally detract from the overall piece. I generally find that most bassists take their phrasing from other bassists and from the books they read on feel and playing style. I know I have my own sound but i have no idea where it came from and i'm sure i sound arrogant for being blunt and honest. i'm speculating and generalizing from what i've taken from other players and the way they put themselves out there - please dont' take this as me being the expert or thinking i am. i'm just expressing my feelings and perceptions about playing and unique situations...if anyone ever hears me play and i remind them of any player...please tell me.

but back to the topic...loops you might like to really play with are the ambient loops. start the loop after the initial attack and you'll get pure tone. if you have anything after the looper you can affect the tone with your effects...sort of like when (another nero reference) good ol' Pablo Sanchez runs his loops through his microsynthesizer...i think this is more because the echoplex must have an effects loop. filter sweeps and voicing can be totally tasty for atmosphere and to alleviate the mood of your audience...

I'm very curious about the other line6 stompboxes, as I use a lot of effects and would appreciate having less in my signal path...less noise and line loss. I like being able to use my feet to tweak out knobs and sliders...the filter modeller is something i'm really interested in...i like my bass microsynth a whole lot but it's pretty delicate...I can't afford to set myself up with the moogerfooger effects and i know the line 6 stompboxes have expression pedal features which i really really appreciate. If i could ever get an endorsement (provided i ever become a serious musician in a band) i think that'd be my ideal situation...'we like what you do with tone...here's some free stuff - go make people trip balls'

i wish the line6 unit had more than 14 seconds of looping time. are there mods anywhere?? can anyone add more memory??

I often think that if i were to help line6 create a new line of stompboxes they'd cost about a hundred bucks more at least...my issue is having to bend over to turn knobs effectively and to set up the expression pedal settings...

maybe it'd be better to use the pro series with those concerns i have??

are there any loopers that are more suited for bass instruments or more full range instruments??

and as for the 'tone snobs' - tone snobs have the money avaliable to be tone snobs. Some of them aren't that snobby...they just know and like good gear and can tell the difference. there's a reason people still use tape loop echoes. they feel different...my only issue with digital effects is that your analog signal gets sampled and instead of the sound coming out being an accurate representation of the entire signal, it works like film. a bunch of snapshots (thousands per second) instead of the entire amount of sound.

There's so much music that's been lost forever - not that you can notice it, but it's sort of a spiritual approach to the digital vs. analog argument...digitizing makes sound more concise. there's content that'll be lost forever just because of a translation of your musical dialogue.

that's why analog is different IMHO.

it's a feeling more than a sound.

as far as loop timing, the reason dr. didg's drummer doesn't scrunch his face up is because the drummer comes in after the loop...that means the drummer is playing to the loop, not trying to keep time - i would assume your drummer is trying to set the tempo. explain to him that he's got to play to your loop and he'll understand and not scrunch his face anymore.

i agree with having to be exact. i would suggest that if you're starting the loop, instead of starting the loop and finishing it with the play button that you hit the record button again and then again when you're done the loop...that means you actually have to play your initial loop twice. that might even out the phrase a little more until you get the hang of timing and it'll certainly strengthen your loop's sound as it's 2 of the same phrases looped together.

have you tried to play with the reverse and half/double time features on your looper yet?? it gets trippy and you can really augment the phrase if you want to change the jam.

you'll hear your envelope of sound change as well. you can loop over top and keep changing it up. switch back again and you'll hear somethng very different than you'd thought of before.

[Spudly]

Not bloated, CB, just choc-full of heady goodness. Thanks for all the insight. You sound as obsessive as I am about these things...

Oh, and try to tell a drummer to obey the loop? "it's ME who keeps the time, bitch, not some pissy little green box, ME GODAMMIT"...you know how tempermental drummers are. poor sensitive little fellas.

[SaggyBalls]

well if you can't get the looper to be an extension of you you'd better learn how to use your gear, biatch!

[boogieknight]

hey rob. check your email ::

[SaggyBalls]

hey Jesse - let's rock it!

[SaggyBalls]

http://www.bosscorp.co.jp/products/en/RC-20XL/details.html

16 minutes recording time and a new undo feature, as well as an optional footswitch that lets you select different loops. have saved loops for different parts of a song?

i think this is my looping goal unless somebody can point out a better bang for buck ratio.

[PalacePrincess]

10111000011100111010101010111111000111010100011111101010111

11110010111000011110101000110001000111111010100011111000101

11001100000011101010010101011110101011101010111000111010101

01101010111010101011101010101110100011111001010101010101010

heehee, just kidding... i'll get outta this thread now. ::

[Booche]

Mindless looping drives me insane.

I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument I see the bass more as an instrument

[MarcO]

I recently reconfigured my rig. I found the BossMan to be too cumbersome and Scandanavian. Whenever I merged it with my Bing 200-XD octave blaster it would short out and the cycles would go out of time. For a while I used a Jacov 540 through a HairyBag 5-Model 2 – the nice guy with freckles at the music store recommended it but I think he may have been a bit fruity, you know – and that seemed to work for a while but whenever I used a string guage below .021 flames would shoot out of the battery pack. That’s how we lost our bass player, btw.

I then tried the Boomerang but whenever I would throw it in the crowd, some dude would pocket it and I’d be out another $47,000. My parents got tired of buying me new sh!t so I went down to the pawn shop and they had a beaut! An old Analog FruitLooper U-80 Model C!! Man, I played the hell out of that thing – took it on the road, worked like a charm (although we had to rent another van to carry it). At 50Hz it would kind of hum a little out of pitch but then I juiced it up and had 51Hz flowing like a bukkake film! It hooked up to each of your toes so I had to learn to wiggle them at just the right time – one time I wiggled my second left toe instead of my second right (left foot) and the delay went into waltz time but we were already 74 minutes into the opening groove and it fu©ked everything up! That was hilarious but the bass player who replaced the one I killed hated it so he left.

Eventually we decided “who needs a bass player when our keyboard player has two hands?!?”. I mean, there it was – another hand! Once we got the vodka and tonic out of it, we had our bass player!

Anyway – back to the gear. Eventually the old analog bitch broke down and I went loop-less for a while. I sounded downright acoustic! But after a while, our fans began to complain that they weren’t getting the most out of their massive drug cocktails without repetitive loops keeping their chins bobbing and heads banging, so with great gusto and a nose full of yayo, I went back to the freckled fruity virgin at the music store and looked at the most recent gear and I’m happy to say I’m real pleased with what I walked away with! So now, I’m feeding the BJ 990 Loop Effect box into a Bad Santa metriculator. It has an optional footpedal but I don't have my driver's licence so that's out. I’m also using a vintage GapingEntry-1 semi-digital Crybaby flat board with black knobs. These I have plugged into a hand blender which in turn goes directly through the little hole in the front of the bass drum. I don’t know exactly what goes on after that but the feed is returned to my BirdBlaster Marshall amp head where it is split into a 3-sided stereo output (yeah! 3 sides!). The nice thing about the BJ990 is that it cancels out all frequencies not generated by myself or the black keys on the keyboard so now our sound guy can sort out lots of drugs for us in his down time. He’s such a gimp. When we played Edmonton last year, he disappered to Canmore for three months and came back with a brand new septum! I’m going to miss him when the enivitable “accident” occurs.

I hope my experiences help you guys get your gear inorder. By the way, you ever heard of Trey Anastasio? Used to be the guitar player for The Dead – I think he uses the same gear I do! Check him out!

[SaggyBalls]

Mindless looping drives me insane.

totally. that's why I like to know how to use my gear and not use needless loops...however, if you're talking about ME, then why don't you actually get something off your chest and send me a PM or make it public?

and MarcO?? what the fu©k? I understand there are websited geared to gear discussions but I'm just tossing out conversation to someone that's interested in being able to make a certain kind of music.

maybe you're just trying to rib me or us 'loop heads' (for the record I rarely use loops in a practical situation) .

if you don't like what i have to say that's fine but if you're trying to get me to shut up i'll just make more noise.

[MarcO]

canned beats - fu©k dude, I'm just joking around.

didn't you just suggest recently that I'm too "serious"?!?

make all the noise you want. have a nice weekend.

[boogieknight]

Hey CB, i think you need to turn up the sarcasm on your speakers, you're missing out my friend, those post were quite funny with the sarcasm up full blast.

beware of the goose!

[SaggyBalls]

Sorry, dude...I've just been stressed lately. the only thing that's really brought me out of it has been music. It's just that lately i've been thinking about my gear and what i can do with it to get my rig to do what i want it to. I've just about figured it out but i've come into some hitches...

anyhow, this topic has hit relatively close to home lately for me and i was just frustrated - your post did make me chuckle - i actually laughed and i even thought you might be making issue with the topic, this aspect of new music, or with me.

I did suggest that you could be a bit serious. thanks for the levity. i'm just a bit twitchy...I've had to do a lot of thinking lately. it hasn't been fun but it's been rewarding. i wake up feeling drained and confused, only to go through my day without direction.

when i strap on my bass and play music I remember that i'm not as hopeless and stupid as my current situation might mead me to believe. It's nice to be able to reassure myself that i'm not wasting my time and the time of everybody else. I've spent time wondering if music is really somethng that i should focus on and the past month has shown me that it is. I just hope that I can be in a position to be able to do it more seriously in the upcoming months. It's the only part of my life that's remained a constant in the 10 years i've been playing and it's the only thing that's taken me out of really uncomfortable situations and mindsets. If I never would've started playing music none of you would have my uber-long posts to make you shake your head and raise an eyebrow or think 'i think that guy's onto something(i dont' know what it is but it's something).

[c-towns]

hahahahhahahahahahahaha, MarcO too serious?

thanks asshat, I spilled my beer.

[boogieknight]

no need for sorry's my friend. just remember acceptace is the key mastering the goose. If music is your savour then play on, play on.

[SaggyBalls]

yeah...i'm pretty wound up. i totally feel for jared.

i was playing today but i hate having to tear my rig down all the time...gotta figure out how to make a box...it can't be that hard...can it??

[hamilton]

I see the bass more as an instrument

I see it more as a fish: