remembering 9/11

[badams]

2973 Killed on Sept 11 - 24 Missing

19 Hijackers Killed on Sept 11

2666 US Soldiers Killed in Iraq

333 US Soldiers Killed in Afghanistan

20000 US Soldiers wounded

46000 Iraq Civilians Killed

[color:red]Osama Bin Laden still roaming around making videos

[color:red]There is something VERY wrong here!!!

[Deeps]

I don't find flag burning all that offensive.

It's a symbol of nationalism. Last time I checked being wicked into the slab of land you call your country didn't serve to prevent any wars.

Not that I'd go and burn a flag ... it's a little dramatic, but the sentiment is not all evil from anti-nationalist viewpoints.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Guest

[Booche]

I couldnt disagree with you more.

[scottieking]

I am where I am today. In the classroom. I remember as a student told me what had happened (the first plane) By the time we had the radio on the second had hit. I think listening to it on the radio will forever stick with me as the images seemed so much more horrific in my mind. I remember the lump that was in my throat when they announced that the Pentagon had been hit. That's when the most unbelievable feeling of dread descended.

Today, I am teaching four very important things to remember

1)9/11 and the Iraq War have no direct connection (the number of students that still believe this is unbelievable)

2)9/11 could have been prevented, but terrorist acts in North America were/are an inevitablity.

3)9/11 may have changed the world, but the world didn't have to change the way it did.

4)The sins of the father (read generation) will always revisit on the child.

Afghanistan in the 1980's = 9/11

Afghanistan in 2006 = ??

[Deeps]

the above aside.

I was in 3rd year university in the University Centre.

I had got drunk and lost my wallet the night before so I had just finished getting a new student card. I walked down the stairs and in the campus bar there was a bunch of people staring at a television.

The second tower was burning...I watched along with them. I went to the washroom. When I returned the first tower had fallen.

I remember Sep 12th being a day where I would wonder if finally someone would stand up and say that this rift needs to heal and that they (the US govt) would work on helping it heal. Instead of that message I listened to much politicing and then the orders to move out and attack.

Here we are 5 years later and really not that closer to a solution.

Yayyy God.

Deeps

[bradm]

My first memory of Tuesday, Sept. 11, 2001 was my decision to finally go to the travel agent's office to arrange my month-long backpack/train trip around Europe (which was getting squeezed between my being slackful in setting it up, and needing to get back in time to see SCI in Toronto & Montreal). I got to the office, thinking, "Today's the day!" This thought lasted until mid-morning, at which point I decided it would be a Very Bad Day to go to a travel agent.

Aloha,

Brad

[Birdy]

i don't think posting that pic was being anti-nationalistic.. just a stab in the dark here.. but i think the whole "GO IRAQ" avatar and a burning American flag in a thread entitled "remembering 9/11" are solid clues.

as for flag burning.. ever at a rememberance day ceremony and watched tears fall from a veteran's eye as the flag was lowered to half mast? i have. just because you personally might not have any ties to that flag, doesn't mean that flag doesn't mean a lifetime to another person. be respectful and don't condone flag burning. it's the equivalent to spitting in the face of all those people who invested so much for us.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Guest

[The Chameleon]

I don't find flag burning all that offensive.

It's a symbol of nationalism. Last time I checked being wicked into the slab of land you call your country didn't serve to prevent any wars.

Not that I'd go and burn a flag ... it's a little dramatic, but the sentiment is not all evil from anti-nationalist viewpoints.

I have to back Steve up here. Flag burning is an acceptable form of protest of serious national issues that have gone wrong. It is freedom of expression and must be tolerated.

Free expression and free speech are not synonymus with popular speech.

Further is Steven Harper continues to tarnish our countries reputation by commiting more troops to the "Amercian agenda" in the middle east, I could forsee myself buring a Canadian flag at a demonstartion. Serious porblems call for serious protest.

[ollie]

When I first heard the news, and before the full scale of the attack was known, I e-mailed a friend who worked in tower 5 to make sure he was ok. I didn't hear from him until 6 months later because it took him that long to be able to talk about what happened. I re-read that e-mail every year on the anniversary and it seems more and more unreal with each passing year.

[Deeps]

I couldnt disagree with you more.

[color:purple]Truly Shocking

[Birdy]

I have to back Steve up here. Flag burning is an acceptable form of protest of serious national issues that have gone wrong. It is freedom of expression and must be tolerated.

sorry buddy, but i have to give one big FUCK THAT to this.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Guest

[Deeps]

i don't think posting that pic was being anti-nationalistic.. just a stab in the dark here.. but i think the whole "GO IRAQ" avatar and a burning American flag in a thread entitled "remembering 9/11" are solid clues.

as for flag burning.. ever at a rememberance day ceremony and watched tears fall from a veteran's eye as the flag was lowered to half mast? i have. just because you personally might not have any ties to that flag, doesn't mean that flag doesn't mean a lifetime to another person. be respectful and don't condone flag burning. it's the equivalent to spitting in the face of all those people who invested so much for us.

I hear you on the Go Iraq thing....as for it meaning a lifetime to others.....it's all about context.

The burnt flag was posted in response to thread about 9/11 not Rememberance Day and it is in the 9/11 framework from which I'm speaking and the f'd up nationalist ideals that have spawned some major bullshit that deserves to be burned.

Forests burn all the time for the purpose of rebirth, dominant American nationalism could benefit from the same cycle.

[MarcO]

The immediate tragedy of 9/11 was the senseless loss of life suffered by innocent people in America. The ongoing tragedy of 9/11 is the continuing senseless loss of life suffered by innocent people as the result of Mr. Bush's opportunistic maneouvering. So much sympathy and support, squandered. So much goodwill swept away. And for what?

The five year mark is a good time to examine this "War On Terrorism", and a good time to think about where the average person's headspace is at. After all, we are in a different reality now than on September 10, 2001. It seems simply impossible to me to think that combat operations in the Middle East are going to do anything other than rouse a new generation of extreme behaviour and terrorism. At what point can it be said that this "War On Terrorism" has been won? Where is the line that all this military effort eventually crosses, the line between struggle and success?

What does it mean to be a Muslim in today's Western world? 9/11 provided a unique window for self-awareness and understanding, of examining the root causes that terrorism springs from. It was an opportunity for America to examine it's global role, to take a cold, hard, sober look at itself. In the weeks that followed 9/11 I heard the most amazing things from otherwise seemingly rational people: "let's just blow up the Middle East" - "Nuke 'em" - and my favorite, the most pathetic of all, from up on high: "if you're not with us you're with the terrorists".

People who previously never watched the news, read a paper, expressed no interest in current affairs, race relations, justice, war or peace had suddenly come to a conclusion on World Affairs based on the images they saw on their TV screens, their mouths opened, and out popped the most amazing, and terrible, things.

9/11 SHOULD have shown us all that the world is not black and white, that nothing is simple, and that violence solves nothing, ESPECIALLY when declaring war against a school of thought, which can't just be bombed, burned down, or hung out to dry at dawn.

The tragedies of 9/11 did not begin or end that day. This is why we should not use 9/11's anniversary as an excuse to simply remember, but to resolve to keep thinking and questioning our prejusices, reactions, and to dig deeper. Go far enough and you'll begin to wonder why the US administration seems so desperate to simply say: "crazy people who hate our freedom hijacked planes, crashed them into buildings, we shot one down, and that's that". I don't think so. I am not satisfied with that AT ALL.

No black and white. Nothing is that simple.

[phorbesie]

i was at work that night in tokyo when my student's cell phone (and many others) started beeping alot with lots of text messages. finally my student took it out to see what was so important.

people in japan were afraid that tokyo would be attacked soon as well. looking up into tokyo's never-dark sky, i did worry too that first night.

i left for a month's holiday in thailand shortly after 9/11. people there already had osama t-shirts and i remember NY tourists getting upset because thais were joking about the situation.

[Birdy]

I hear you on the Go Iraq thing....as for it meaning a lifetime to others.....it's all about context.

exactly what i'm saying. we have to have incredible abilities at communicating if were to rely on 'context'.

it's like bruce cockburn's stories of US soldiers trying to clear a road in Iraq.. speaking in English to people who can't understand the word "hello", becoming so frustrated that they can't communicate, they start to yell "MOVE OFF THE ROAD"!!!, the Iraqis, still unable to understand what is going on, sense the frustration and become frustrated themselves... what happens.. open friggin' fire. but it's all in the context, right?

context shmontext. teach by examples. not everyone understands where you are coming from. again, what it means to you, means something totally different to someone else and that should be respected. especially considering we're lucky enough to know how much it means to someone else.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Guest

[tcurtis]

I was at home, and had just woken up when I read what I thought was an odd "breaking news" piece on slashdot.org about planes hitting buildings in NYC. I turned on the television and the radio to learn more. I remember thinking that it didn't seem real, like it was a movie. Because of that day, and the events that followed I made a point of trying to be a little more aware of world politics and the world in general. I'm ashamed that that's what it took to open my eyes though.

Unfortunately, Sept 11th is my little sister's birthday, so the 11th is a weird day of mixed emotions for her and our family. :crazy: I should point out that her father, my then step-father, was a fire fighter and we really felt for those families that had lost loved ones in the line of duty (or otherwise of course).

[bokonon]

I got to work at about two that afternoon. I don't watch TV and I was listening to CDs at home and on the way to work so nothing seemed awry to me. Kitchener was totally normal until I got to work and my co-workers told me what happened. I didn't believe them. It took several newscasts over the radio to convince me they weren't messing with me Perhaps it was just my inability to comprehend the notion that North America isn't the insular pocket of the world where nothing bad happens and we are free from any real worry for our entire lives. I had thought that North Americans don't have to worry about bombs and terrorists, we didn't have any major political problems.

It was this day that I started to realize how much North Americans take from the rest of the world. We take oil from the middle east, we set up banana republics in the carribean, we try to export our values and lifestyle everywhere and we force our pollution on the entire planet. If I wasn't North American I would be pissed off too.

If someone has an unfair advantage, or is signigicantly better off than most of the people around them, the majority will always resent them. Especially if the riches were obtained through the sweat and blood of the poor. As the rich use more resources the poor have less to survive on.

On some level I respect the people who are trying to stand up to the oppressor. It isn't right that North America abuses the power and wealth it has.

[ollie]

On some level I respect the people who are trying to stand up to the oppressor. It isn't right that North America abuses the power and wealth it has.

I wish people in the middle east would stand up to the oppressive regimes in their own countries first.

[Im going home Donny]

Friendlys got the 3 part seriess of the BBCs 'Power of Nightmares' at home...I've only begun watching it and...WOW...Starts with the birth of neo-conservatism and radical Islamists in 1949 and goes from there.

Highly reccomended viewing.

http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares

Edited September 11, 2006 by Guest

[bokonon]

That is an awesome point and I totally agree. My theory on why they don't do this is that they are indoctrinated by said oppressive regime to believe that the fault lies entirely with big bad North America, and not at all with the regime that controls their nation and its people.

[payce-ley]

the night of sept 11, 2001 I went out adn sat by myself on a patio (hardly anyone else was out, was the only person at the bar)... you don't realize how different not seeing or hearing a single plane fly over is until you experience it

last night on CBC they showed a powerful documentary called "Why We Fight"... a particularly devastating point was when they were speaking with the father of a man killed in the world trade center attacks who had proudly written his son's name on the first bomb fired on Baghdad Iraq... he said that when he later heard George Bush publicly announce that his administration had never said that they had found any evidence of Iraq having any direct involvement whatsoever in the 9/11 attacks he was unbelievably crushed and humiliated... he kept saying "What did he just say?" What did he just say?" over and over and couldn't stop crying... once he regained himself he asked that if you can't trust your president, who can you trust? having been manipulated to use his son's memory to start a war that had nothing to do with his son's death tormented him beyond words... fuck you Bush

[Caspien]

I don't find flag burning all that offensive.

It's a symbol of nationalism. Last time I checked being wicked into the slab of land you call your country didn't serve to prevent any wars.

Not that I'd go and burn a flag ... it's a little dramatic' date=' but the sentiment is not all evil from anti-nationalist viewpoints.[/quote']

I have to back Steve up here. Flag burning is an acceptable form of protest of serious national issues that have gone wrong. It is freedom of expression and must be tolerated.

Free expression and free speech are not synonymus with popular speech.

Further is Steven Harper continues to tarnish our countries reputation by commiting more troops to the "Amercian agenda" in the middle east, I could forsee myself buring a Canadian flag at a demonstartion. Serious porblems call for serious protest.

I agree that burning YOUR OWN nations flag should symbolize your demand for dramatic change in YOUR OWN country. BUT the problem lies with the fact that the vast majority of people in North America don't see it that way. Instead they see it as a form of HATE. And this causes the political divide to get even wider.

A lot of people in this world are very patriotic to their country and certain symbols that stand for their country. By burning their flag and saying you think that their ideals should be burnt or disapear in this world does not help our society get better.

I have some friends that are right leaning individuals. Religious, pro-war, and very close minded to any other ideals. If they saw the burning flag they would probably say " Go smoke yer crack in a ditch you dirty hippy" and then they would have yet another reason to be closeminded about anybody they see as being left wing loonies.

I also know a whole lot of good, down to earth people tthat would just see flag burning as ignorant and this forum is proving that.

Our society will never change if we continue to stoop down to their level. It just validates their own ideals.

Just my 2 cents

[ollie]

Burning flags is just flat out not cool. Even in protest to Stephen Harper. I would hope the flag transcends that pinhead.

[ggrtrhhrtgg]

I don't like this day. It invokes terrible moments of a memory I don't like to try to comprehend. I am not normally a fan of American foreign policy, but, in this case, I think I would want to keep my criticism to a minimum. The Republicans could have reacted in a far worse fashion, we are talking about a country that dropped two atomic bombs already. Was there a connection between Iraq and Al-Qaeda?? No, not directly, but, i think in this case there was much pressure for point to be made, thus a head was placed on the end of a stick.

I cannot suggest that I support that sort of policy. I would love to see someone come along and solve the differences between the Western World and Islam, however, in the face of that attack, in a world that has more often than not solved its problems through retribution, I am somewhat reluctant to condemn the Bush administration, especially when they "got our backs."

In fact, isn't our country recognized around the world as peacekeepers?? What solutions does/has our Government/past-Government provided?

[YearsAlongTheSea]

In terms of the flag burning; in this thread and this context, it was just not appropriate and out of line in my opinion. In terms of burning the American Flag as a statement, what are you really trying to say? The flag represents everything, not just the government or particular administration but the society itself. And if you seperate these two entities, you may be suprised to find out there are huge differences. What America stands for on paper is relatively nobel. What America is on the surface and what lays within the veins of its' infastructure is obtuse and evil. As this war on terror continues, you'll find more than half of the country is decidedly against the decisions and executions of its' Administration, but, is stuck between a rock and a hard place as a result of the past two elections. So, what I'm getting at is, by burning a nations flag, you're making too blunt and too general a statement. The problem with America doesn't lie in the ideals that it's flag is founded on, it lies in the actions of the powers that be. So, instead of burning the flag, burn a picture of Bush or the Republican Party Flag, or a class photo of the Republican Party '02. This way you don't go pissing off a trigger happy nation with one finger on the 'launch' button and one pointing to freedom and liberty.