Stephen Harper is an enemy of Canada

[ollie]

You might like FreeDominion.ca.

I owe you an apology Birdy. I spent some time on Free Dominion this morning and the majority of posters are nothing like you. They actually show the capacity to be critical of Harper.

[ollie]

The quality of universal healthcare in Canada is substandard in comparison to the privatized system in the USA.

Wrong.

[Birdy]

Easy!

Critical of him because he's becoming a centrist and not some whacked out religious fluffhead who thinks along the lines of Sarah Palin's god's plan for the world and government... or who believe women belong at home with the kids and have no right in the workplace, or who are anti-abortion, even when it concerns rape, or think the christian god is the one and only. YAY free-dominioners! F'in crazies.

I think i've shown that I'm not all on board of Harper's plan in this forum... I absolutely hate his stance on marijuana as a 'gateway drug', and hate the whole 'war on drugs' philosophy as a whole. I've said how I'd want the opposition to be the opposition and ensure certain laws don't get passed. I'm sorry if i'm not going to jump on the bandwagon of speculation and subscribe to the theories of all of this evilness noone can back up without using quotes from 1997 when he was a Reform'er and talk of a western alliance was the cool thing to do. I won't. Maybe i'll learn four years down the road, maybe you will... only time will tell.

In the meantime, I'll vote for what speaks to me, without falling prey to all of the election time bullshit.

The quality of healthcare in Canada absolutely SUCKS in comparison to the US. SUCKS. Maybe you need to live a little closer to the border to realize, but i'm 45 minutes away from Detroit, and know too many people who cross border shop for health care even when it costs them money, for the sure and simple fact that it's better. Maybe you're talking from a purely social aspect of it's free, but i'm talking the actual care itself. The ability to get an appointment, to have a doctor, to not have to be put on a waitlist for three months for a cat scan when you're dying from bone cancer as my friend's dad is. There's something that can be said about piece of mind when it comes to health care, and frankly, our system provides noone with piece of mind, unless you're lucky enough to be in cahoots with a specialist. Other than that, you're just a number amongst a lot of numbers.

Edited September 29, 2008 by Guest

[The Chameleon]

I have to call you on this on Bridy. I travel to the US all the time and have gone on many tours through the heartland.

Everytime I go I always buy health coverage here just in case something happens to me.

A couple times I got real sick and had to use my health insurance and go to private health care providers to get treated.

In my experience the wait times were longer and the care was worse. I have had to go to private care 3 times in the US and only once would I say it measure up to Canadian standards..

When was the last time you were seen by a private health care professional in the US?

In extreme cases of surgery you are right, if you have the money you can skip tot eh front of the line in the US but that doesn't mean the care is any better..only faster.

Edited September 29, 2008 by Guest

[Birdy]

I guess we have different experiences then Chameleon... i travel in the states all year round, north/south/east/west and have US health insurance provided to me by my company. In my five and half years of working here, I've been to clinics numerous times. The last was in August in Monterey, CA when I broke out in hives... went to a clinic to get a shot of histimine. Walked in, wrote my information down on a sheet, was told to go into a room and wait for a doctor. Two minutes later, he came in. Five minutes later, I left.

Back here, in lovely Canada, if I were to say, go to emerg here in Chatham I'd wait for 6-7 hours, as did my friend this summer when he broke his leg in four different places on a bad slide in baseball. Or as my mom who's a nurse says, don't go to Chatham's hospital, drive to Newbury... the little old town in the middle of nowhere as the wait time there is only a couple of hours. Only thing is, it takes a good solid 40 minutes to get there.

Or how 'bout (this is going to get personal) the time I found a lump in my breast, called my doctor to make an appointment to get it checked... was scheduled three weeks later. I cried literally every morning and every night for three weeks straight. Went to my doctor who told me I needed to go for an ultra sound... was scheduled three weeks after that for this procedure. Another three weeks of crying every single morning and every single night. Got the ultrasound done and then waited two weeks to hear back from my doctor who had the results mailed to her three days after the ultrasound. Luckily for me, it's nothing and pretty standard for women who are in their child-bearing years. But still. My mom's friend, another nurse for a GP has a different doctor than the one she works for. But when she gets her yearly mammograms done, she has a copy sent to the doctor she works for (cuz it will come to her) and to her actual doctor. She says she doesn't want to wait for them to actually get around to calling her back.

Good times with Canadian health care... indeed.

Edited September 29, 2008 by Guest

[The Chameleon]

I don't deny that Canadian health care is slower due tot he fact it is egalitirian and isured all so the volume is much higher.

The problem with the US system is the rich get coverage while the rest get sick and die.

Have you ever looked at how much health coverage costs in the US?@!!

It's a fortune even companies that provide it for their workers are scaling it back more and more.

If you lived in the US I am not so sure you'd be covered. Or if you are lucky you may be able to be one of the health care elite.

[ollie]

The last was in August in Monterey, CA when I broke out in hives... went to a clinic to get a shot of histimine. Walked in, wrote my information down on a sheet, was told to go into a room and wait for a doctor. Two minutes later, he came in. Five minutes later, I left.

Sounds like assembly line medicine designed to maximize profits. I prefer to spend more time with my doctor, not less.

I had a concern last July, called my doctor and had an appointment two hours later. After the visit he had me schedule an appointment for a full check-up. There was a 3 week wait for that, on account of me going on vacation and not being able to get in earlier.

Our health care system rocks and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

[Birdy]

I dunno... it's a lot different when you don't live in Toronto or Ottawa and live in one of the places they talk about when they mention doctor shortages. Even if I'd like to spend time with my doctor, she doesn't have time to spend with me. I haven't gotten into the doctor after two hours since my initial call in my entire life. Around these parts, you're looking at weeks. Otherwise you can take the day off, go to the one and only walk-in clinic and wait for six hours in a waiting room full of sick kids (the same kinda place that 'sounds like assembly line medecine', except the difference is, they're overloaded)... or to emergency room, which I've already outlined. My friend who just had a baby found out a week before she had breast cancer... had to be induced to have the baby, kicked out of the hospital four hours later because of bed shortages and then had to come back three days later for a lumpectomy. Then came the chemo, and then the radiation... the most brutal part of the radiation for her was the hour drive to and hour drive back from London every single day because Chatham can't afford to offer this service. Imagine? A new born baby, cancer, having to drive two hours every single day for six months straight to get radiation. Thank god she came out of it AOK and has a clean bill of health, but it's just another reason for me to say our system sucks. Don't think the entire country's healthcare system runs like it does in the city, it surely does not.

[AD]

i don't know any of the details involved so this may be totally irrelevant, and at the least totally unhelpful, but we were looking at hiring a dude from the states to work up here. the money we offered him was insane but he turned us down because his wife is sick and they couldn't get the same level of care in canada as they could in the states.

just a little anecdote there. doesn't really mean anything.

[SaggyBalls]

If you can pay you can really play in the USA, whereas here it's pickup for everyone...

...I had to wait 3 months for a doctor that doesn't seem to have much interest in being my doctor and he tells me not to go to walk in clinics because every time I do he gets penalized for it.

The guy hasn't sent any of my paperwork off that he's known about for weeks and now it's going to marginalize certain aspects of my care.

I still prefer to be covered no matter what for what needs to be done.

I don't see anything wrong with a 2 tier system with wage limits on private clinics.

[ollie]

Don't think the entire country's healthcare system runs like it does in the city, it surely does not.

Yet you seem to judge the healthcare system based entirely on rural experience. I'm just asking for a little balance. If the average experience for most users falls between our two extremes then I'd still say that's a very good system. And at least everyone is afforded some protection.

Glad to hear your scare turned out ok, btw.

AD, I'd be interested in the particulars of that case but I'd guess you probably don't have that information.

[Booche]

I'd still say that's a very good system

As far as I am concerned we may offer free health care but I dont think it is a very good system.

If I win the lottery, I am definitely getting my knee repaired in the US because what I have gone through in the past year is ridiculous.

[Birdy]

Yet you seem to judge the healthcare system based entirely on rural experience. I'm just asking for a little balance. If the average experience for most users falls between our two extremes then I'd still say that's a very good system. And at least everyone is afforded some protection.

Glad to hear your scare turned out ok, btw.

Thanks, me too!

I think our health care system SHOULD be judged on how it works in both rural/urban areas... there's the major inconsistency right there. There shouldn't be compromise in this regard, it's healthcare and oh oh so important. I don't think it's quite fair to ask for a 'little balance' when peoples lives depend on it. Our system has MAJOR flaws, and whereas I don't support privatized healthcare, I do support significant attempts to clean this shit up - whether that comes by way of a two-tier system (i think Hamilton posted an article a long while back about Singapore's(??) system which I thought sounded pretty great), increased funding, guarantee legislation, or getting immigrants with medical licenses in say Russia able to practice here... whatever. Something needs to be done. It's by no means great, and the argument that it's free isn't an argument. I'm sure if people's own health and life were on the line, they wouldn't accept the 'meh, but it's free' line. I'd be inclined to kick that person in the teeth! haha Not really... but you know what I mean. It's life on the line. That's pretty huge.

[hamilton]

Correct on both counts: me, Singapore. The best explanation I read was in Tim Harford's "The Undercover Economist" (which I **highly** recommend to anyone as an interesting read).

The basic gist is that the government forces (through legislation) everyone to save for health care - it comes right off of their paycheque, and employers are also forced to contribute as well (I think employees have 20% of their paycheque deducted, and the employers have to kick in an amount equal to 15%). The money goes into a dedicated, interest-earning account which cannot be used for anything other than health care. All medical choices are made by the citizen, who is able to shop around because medical service providers are forced to publish price lists. There is also a government-run non-profit health care option which naturally is cheaper than the private clinics, and serves the dual function of forcing private clinics to keep their prices reasonalbe if they are want to have a large number of patients. The government pays for all basic health necessities, and for anyone who is unable to pay for their own health care.

Or something like that. I'm not bradm. You'll all have to read up on it for yourselves if you want to learn some more. For what it's worth, Singapore has the #1-ranked health care in the world. Of course, it's also really small, in terms of both population and geography.

[bradm]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadavotes/story/2008/09/30/rae-harper.html

Aloha,

Brad

[ollie]

Birdy, I don't disagree that the system needs fixing. I disagree that the American system is better. Vehemently.

[Birdy]

*GASP*

What a burn!

If anything is the sure tell sign of desperation.

[Birdy]

oops, that was in response to the article Bradm posted Ollie.

I disagree that the American system is better. Vehemently.

This isn't about affordability. It's about the actual level/quality of care provided. I don't honestly 'get' how you can vehemently disagree over this.

[ollie]

*GASP*

What a burn!

If anything is the sure tell sign of desperation.

Kinda like the Dion ads that are taken totally out of context? I so wish you could be consistent. This is an example of what I find so infuriating about your style.

[ollie]

oops, that was in response to the article Bradm posted Ollie.

I disagree that the American system is better. Vehemently.

This isn't about affordability. It's about the actual level/quality of care provided. I don't honestly 'get' how you can vehemently disagree over this.

Because if you can't AFFORD care then you get no care. How is that a good, or even better, thing?

[Kanada Kev]

First off, i'm glad to hear that your health is OK after your ordeal birdy. That's scary shit.

I think that it is interesting to look at the comparison between the US and Canada and how the discussion has raised the rural vs. urban aspect. To me it only makes sense that you are more likely to find more specialists, equipment, beds, hospitals, doctors, nurses, etc. in large urban areas. Do I think that those in more rural areas should suffer? NO! The system is flawed this way. However, geographically there is no way that you'll be within 15mins of a large-scale hospital in every rural location in the country.

There definitely should be a better system that can ensure that services are available to everyone, but sometimes you're just going to have to go the distance to get it. I'm wondering if this is radically different in the US? If you were living in a rural area in the US are there hospitals all over the place? If you can afford health coverage you're still going to have to drive to a regional health care centre that could be a fair distance away, no?

Have you ever talked to Americans about really good experiences with their HMO's??? Is it just me or does everyone down there have a horror story about one? Talk about being treated like a number ...

Hey, if i REALLY needed care and they couldn't provide it for me in good time here in Canada I would DEFINITELY be looking at alternatives and ways to finance it by going elsewhere.

[ollie]

There definitely should be a better system that can ensure that services are available to everyone, but sometimes you're just going to have to go the distance to get it. I'm wondering if this is radically different in the US? If you were living in a rural area in the US are there hospitals all over the place? If you can afford health coverage you're still going to have to drive to a regional health care centre that could be a fair distance away, no?

Thank you for the common sense. Wish I'd pointed that out but Birdy makes my brain go mush.

[Birdy]

Ollie, i wasn't talking about systems, i was talking about quality.

The quality of health care in Canada absolutely SUCKS in comparison to that in the US.

I said a scroll or two down the page that I don't support privatized care, but you can't argue the care Americans (those who can afford - how's that bone?) is much better than what we receive. I said i support those who want to fix it. Sometimes i think you pick on me just to be argumentative. There's absolutely nothing inconsistent about what i've said here. NOTHING.

Nor is it 'inconsistent' that I mention the whole plagiarism thing is an act of desperation. It is. We're two weeks out now, it's mud slinging. Everybody's guilty of it, but fact of the matter is, is that the mudslinging ONLY gets brought up in this forum if it's of the anti-harper variety. Don't accuse me of things i'm clearly not. I don't like dirty politics, so i'm not going to post any of it in here. But please bet on me commenting when others do.

Critics even accused Martin Luther King, Jr. of plagiarism over the "I have a dream" speech. I'd venture to say the Libs were sitting on that one for awhile, waiting for the perfect moment to let it loose. I can say that, because it's a REALITY. Or I guess, would you like me to put in a disclaimer that the Conservatives do the same thing?? Just to be fair?

C'mon.

[ollie]

Sometimes i think you pick on me just to be argumentative.

I'm not picking on you. Believe me, I bite my tongue way more than not when you're involved in a thread. I honestly think they'd be more variety in the debate on this forum if you weren't so polarizing.

Nor is it 'inconsistent' that I mention the whole plagiarism thing is an act of desperation. It is.

Are the anti-Dion ads produced by the CPC desparate? I bet you can't say yes.

[Birdy]

Guys you make it sound like Chatham is in the sticks in the middle of nowheresville Saskatchewan. The municipality has 110,000 people living in it, we're 45 minutes from Windsor and an hour from London. I think it qualifies as a 'city'... not a huge one, but still a city. I understand driving for care is a reality, not having a doctor doesn't have to be one, not having more than one walk-in-clinic because there's no doctors in town doesn't have to be one, not having BASIC cancer treatments in an area with 110,000 thousand people in a day and age where 1 in 4 people get diagnosed with cancer doesn't have to be one, waiting for three months for a cat scan or 6-8 hours in the emergency room doesn't have to be one. There's absolutely nothing here that would cause a brain to go mush. I kinda view it as common sense.