CAP on GAZA

[Hal Johnson]

So, BWM, do you believe that Hamas only ever sends rockets in to Israel because they belive the Jews shouldnt exist?

If this were true, do you not think that this is a terribly ineffective way of completing their task?

Is there not one part of you that thinks maybe Hamas and/or the palestinian resistance in general was created in resopnse to what they feel is unjust and unfair?

And if so, how come they are viewed simply as terrorists?

How would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot?

[Kanada Kev]

I find this to be a very interesting thread these days. For a situation that is ultimately complex, layered, ancient and seemingly unresolvable, the information that is presented here is valuable. Very easily this could turn into a shouting match or blame-game based on the topic. There seem to be a lot of reasonable questions and answers going both ways and the extra knowledge can only lead to a somewhat better understanding for all.

I saw a response to that editorial in the G&M that you posted Al.

Middle East war of words

SAM PERLMUTTER

January 14, 2009

Richmond Hill, Ont. -- What is the most pressing matter in the world that requires a Security Council resolution: a) a dysfunctional government allowing mass rapes of its population and blaming a cholera epidemic on Britain; a president employing janjaweed militias to support ethnic cleansing in Darfur; c) a sovereign nation defending itself after having rockets launched into its territory daily by a terrorist group; d) the same militia responsible for the Rwanda genocide conducting mass rapes in Congo, being supported by the Congolese government?

If you guessed "c," you'd be the United Nations (Selective On Rights - editorial, Jan. 13).

[Big Wooly Mammoth]

the Palestinians have been treated like shit for years. And not just by the Israelis, but by the rest of the Arab world. The resistance is fully justified. Terrorism is not. resistance does not equal terrorism. Hamas, IMO is a racist, terrorist organization.

You've got an entire generation of people who have grown up impoverished with no decent future to look forward to. Unfortunately their elders have chosen to fill them with hate and with stories about how the Jews stole their land. Get over it already. Spend your money on education, not bombs. stop teaching hate, and teach how to fix up your land. create homes and close the refugee camps. Israel is not going away. You aren't getting your homes back that were in Israel proper. And I'm not getting my father's home in Galicia. War sucks. People lose. But we need to move on. It's not fair. Life's not fair. Get used to it. Start a new life, get an education, better yourself and stop feeling sorry for yourself and living in the past.

There is NO solution that will please everybody. A two-state solution will come the closest. And that is even potentially moot in the not so long run - based on current projections Jews will be the minority in Israel in about 50 years based on current birth rates.

check out some of the chants used by some of the pro-Palestine protestors.

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=208

So, BWM, do you believe that Hamas only ever sends rockets in to Israel because they belive the Jews shouldnt exist?

If this were true, do you not think that this is a terribly ineffective way of completing their task?

I never said that Hamas was very bright.

Don't forget that Hamas does not represent all Palestinians. They are a Muslim organization. They are the enemies of countries like Egypt. We need to be clear here and not equate Hamas with the Palestinian resistance, in general.

And I'm not saying that I agree with everything that Israel is doing right now in Gaza. All life is sacred. Seeing a Palestinian child die does not make me happy. And I'm pretty sure that most Israeli's don't find joy in that. As opposed to many Palestinians that dance in the streets when they see Israelis get blown up. You can't forget that. As that is part of this whole equation.

[Deeps]

You've got an entire generation of people who have grown up impoverished with no decent future to look forward to. Unfortunately their elders have chosen to fill them with hate and with stories about how the Jews stole their land. Get over it already. .... War sucks. People lose. But we need to move on. It's not fair. Life's not fair. Get used to it. Start a new life, get an education, better yourself and stop feeling sorry for yourself and living in the past.

If only they had a strangle hold on the media and the backing of super powers.

Imagine the scale of this if the Palestians were able to mobilize the way the Jews are.

Your logic seems to only move in one direction. I agree they may need to mve on, but the creation of Israel is an indication that in many ways the Jews did not move on. The religious zealous with which they fight their wars and the lack of empathy from their heads of state indicates that not a lot of moving on is going on on the Israeli side either.

Now we've got 2 groups of assholes who can't accept that they were displaced in the past and you know what the real problem is? The UN got in the business of nation building and by proxy emboldened all displaced people to never ever quit because you too may rewarded a homeland you can destroy for centuries if tables of power shift just-so for you.

Israel was a mistake...they should rename the place and move forward under the pretense that the area is for all people. How 'bout Ispeacestine

An interesting statistical anaylsis of news coverage in North America with regard to this issue.

[Big Wooly Mammoth]

If only they had a strangle hold on the media and the backing of super powers.

well, the Jews do control the world you know. whatever...

You don't really see that you are being totally anti-semitic do you?

[Deeps]

Touchy touchy dude....anti semetic or realistic...hit that link I sent you.

By media I need to clarify that I meant the north american.

The statistics are sound, and definitely indicate a serious bias in the Israeli favour.

Their putting up walls and being funded to the tune 6.5 million a day from the U.S. This is not conspiracy dude....this is how it is.

I'm not saying every jew is in on it, that's anti semetic, but the evidence points to massive sympathy to their cause (a strangle hold is you will) and distortion through major media that has little to no Palestinian voice (a strangle hold of bias through sheer numbers if you will).

Anti-semetic? I think answering to any other point I posted above and maybe ownning the hypocrisy that your "Get over it" diatribe contains before we get the big old anti-semetic flag might be a little more prudent?

[Hal Johnson]

Its pretty infuriorating that most major news omits some of the facts, leaving the majority of the population to belive that the Palestinians are "terrorists" and that they are "cowards" for "hiding behind their children". Because, when all you report is that Hammas sent missiles into Israel, then ya, it stands to reason that they need to defend themselves and the public would naturally look at it that way.

Thank you for posting that link, Deeps. Everytime these occurances happen Im astounded by how one-sided the coverage is. It seems Israel is given the greenlight to do whatever they please until they seem to overboard. Then there's a backlash as people stop and say, hey wait a minute, something doesnt seem right there. Then those people are called anti-semetic.

There is little to no voice in the mainstream media for palestinian people. My cousin is dating a girl whose family fled from there some years ago. Contrary to popular belief, she does not want "all Jews dead," but instead has to suffer through the pain of yet another assault on her people, while the Toronto Star and CNN paint the picture of terrorists and cowards and what-not. Ya, get over it is easy to say, I guess.

[Thorgnor]

Saying that something doesn't seem right and that the Jews have a stranglehold on the media are different things... like saying you wished they could find more peaceful solutions is different from saying make peace through genocide.

just sayin' though is all.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Guest

[M.O.B.E]

Can we back this all the way up to the post about the Khazars and re-have this whole discussion from that point? I think you people are missing a whole chunk of what went on in history that led us to the point we are at now.

How do people who origanally came from an area hundreds of miles removed from present day Isreal have a claim to that land?

I think to also go a little further into this we have to open the Kebra Nagast, and learn about where the Isrealites first settled. Im sure a few people will be surprised to find out that Moses led them into Ethopia, which was where they came from to begin with.

[M.O.B.E]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/kn/kn000-0.htm

[Hal Johnson]

Fair enough, I dont contest that the Jews have a stranglehold on the media, rather Im trying to figure out why it is the palestinian people seem to have no voice here in Canada.

When Israel invaded Lebanon I had to sit through numerous callers on numerous talk shows come down on the Lebanese people. Why is that?

I think the coverage in the media is very one-sided and shapes popular opinion. Either that or everything I've learned about morality and ethics is false.

I think what BWM contrues as hate for a nation is really just the questioning of the nations governement.

When the states went into Iraq they had the media on their side. One of the main personalities on CNN was on John Stewart the other night and admitted that they were wrong in the way they handled the situation.

Many people critisized the US for the actions their government decided to take...no one was saying anything about an american him/herself.

[Big Wooly Mammoth]

Saying that something doesn't seem right and that the Jews have a stranglehold on the media are different things...

exactly...

And I stand by my "get over it comment." I'm not talking about what's happening today in Gaza. I'm saying it in reference to what happened over 60 years ago. Israel exists - get over it! It's not going away. The holocaust happened. My family (what was left of it) lost its land. My father resettled. He started a new life in Canada. He didn't demand his land back. He got over it. That may sound harsh, but life goes on. That's not to say that you shouldn't mourn your losses. Terrible things happened. And I'm not going to minimize the loss of Palestinian lives and homes. What I'm saying is let's move forward and accept the current reality. Jews have a right to the land. Arabs/Palestinians have a right to the land. Split it up and lets live our lives. Living in a refugee camp and pretending that your going to move back to your grandparent's home in Israel aint gonna happen. Just like I'm not going to move back into my father's home in Galicia.

Granted, economic sustainability and a promise of a decent future are requisites to getting over it. all the terrorists and fundamentalists need to be muzzled. As Amoz Oz said, he believes in his heart of hearts that there are enough moderates on both sides that ALL want peace. Two states, side by side, with open borders. hopefully, it's not just a dream. I'd love to see it in my lifetime. But when you have Hamas in control and chants of kill the Jews I don't get too optimistic.

[Hal Johnson]

Two states, side by side, with open borders. hopefully, it's not just a dream. I'd love to see it in my lifetime.

[Big Wooly Mammoth]

I think what BWM contrues as hate for a nation is really just the questioning of the nations governement.

When the states went into Iraq they had the media on their side. One of the main personalities on CNN was on John Stewart the other night and admitted that they were wrong in the way they handled the situation.

Many people critisized the US for the actions their government decided to take...no one was saying anything about an american him/herself.

Fair enough. But when the protesters start chanting "Kill the Jews," they are no longer just criticizing the gov't. check out the link that I posted earlier and that's what you will see (said in Arabic, and translated). And stuff lik ethat scares the hell out of me. Most of my family was exterminated in the Holocaust. So, I can't be totally objective here.

so YOU might be criticizing a gov't policies. fine. but very often the criticism of Israel and it's policies is thinly veiled anti-semitism. Sid Ryan, for example, IMO is simply an anti-semite. He's trying to bar Israeli profs from speaking in Ontario unless they renounce the Israeli government? Huh?!?!

There are way too many issues that we're trying to discuss here (and I'm guilty of some of that) and it's just confusing things.

Moses - Ethiopia - HUH? I guess I'll read that stuff.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Guest

[Big Wooly Mammoth]

New York Times

January 14, 2009

Op-Ed Contributor

Why Israel Can’t Make Peace With Hamas

By JEFFREY GOLDBERG

Washington

IN the summer of 2006, at a moment when Hezbollah rockets were falling virtually without pause on northern Israel, Nizar Rayyan, husband of four, father of 12, scholar of Islam and unblushing executioner, confessed to me one of his frustrations.

We were meeting in a concrete mosque in the Jabalya refugee camp in northern Gaza. Mr. Rayyan, who was a member of the Hamas ruling elite, and an important recruiter of suicide bombers until Israel killed him two weeks ago (along with several of his wives and children), arrived late to our meeting from parts unknown.

He was watchful for assassins even then, and when I asked him to describe his typical day, he suggested that I might be a spy for Fatah. Not the Mossad, mind you, not the C.I.A., but Fatah.

What a phantasmagorically strange conflict the Arab-Israeli war had become! Here was a Saudi-educated, anti-Shiite (but nevertheless Iranian-backed) Hamas theologian accusing a one-time Israeli Army prison official-turned-reporter of spying for Yasir Arafat’s Fatah, an organization that had once been the foremost innovator of anti-Israeli terrorism but was now, in Mr. Rayyan’s view, indefensibly, unforgivably moderate.

In the Palestinian civil war, Fatah, which today controls much of the West Bank and is engaged in intermittent negotiations with Israel, had become Mr. Rayyan’s direst enemy, a party of apostates and quislings. “First we must deal with the Muslims who speak of a peace process and then we will deal with you,†he declared.

But we spoke that day mainly about the hadith, the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, that specifically concerned Jews and their diverse and apparently limitless character failings. This sort of conversation, while illuminating, can become wearying over time, at least for the Jewish participant, and so I was happy to learn that Mr. Rayyan had his own sore points.

“Hezbollah is doing very well against Israel, don’t you think?†I asked. His face darkened, suggesting that he understood the implication of my question. At the time, Hamas, too, was firing rockets into Israel, though irregularly and without much effect.

“We support our brothers in the resistance,†he said. But then he added, “I think each situation is different.â€

How so?

“They have advantages that we in Gaza don’t have,†he said. “They have excellent weapons. Hezbollah moves freely in Lebanon. We are trapped in the Israeli cage. So I don’t like to hear the sentence, ‘Hezbollah is the leader of the resistance.’ It’s a very annoying sentence. They are heroes to us. But we are the ones fighting in Palestine.â€

“And they’re Shia,†I said. Mr. Rayyan, who was educated by Wahhabi clerics in Saudi Arabia, was known in Gaza as a firm defender of Sunni theology and privilege, and sometimes lectured at the Islamic University of Gaza on the danger of Shiite “infiltration.â€

“Yes! There are many different secret agendas,†he said. “We have to be aware of this.â€

Hamas men across Gaza were of two minds on the subject of Hezbollah: One night, I met the members of a Hamas rocket team in the town of Beit Hanoun, on Gaza’s northern border with Israel. The group’s leader, who went by the name of Abu Obeidah, said that he, too, was frustrated by Hezbollah’s success against Israel; he even asked if Hamas’s rocket attacks that summer were featured on television in America, and seemed to deflate physically when I told him no.

“Everyone, all the media, says that Hezbollah is wonderful,†he complained. “We stand with our brothers of Hezbollah, of course, but, really, look at the advantages they have. They get all the rockets they will ever need from Iran.â€

Hamas is not a monolith, and opinions inside the group differ about many things, including engagement with the Shiites of Hezbollah and Iran. The former Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi told me shortly before he was assassinated by Israel in 2004 that it would be “uncharitable†to find fault with Iran.

“What do the Arab states do for us?†he asked. “Iran is steadfast against the Jews.â€

Today, there is no doubt that Rantisi’s view holds sway inside the organization, and many in Hamas wish for even closer ties with Tehran, particularly over the past month as they have absorbed a battering from Israel. Even those who believe that Iran is secretly trying to bring Sunni Palestinians to Shiism acknowledge anti-Israel Shiites as ideals of resistance.

As the Gaza war moves to a cease-fire, a crucial question will inevitably arise, as it has before: Should Israel (and by extension, the United States) try to engage Hamas in a substantive and sustained manner?

It is a fair question, one worth debating, but it is unmoored from certain political and theological realities. One irresistible reality grows from Hamas’s complicated, competitive relationship with Hezbollah. For Hamas, Hezbollah is not only a source of weapons and instruction, it is a mentor and role model.

Hamas’s desire to best Hezbollah’s achievements is natural, of course, but, more to the point, it is radicalizing. One of the reasons, among many, that Hamas felt compelled to break its cease-fire with Israel last month was to prove its potency to Muslims impressed with Hezbollah.

Another reality worth considering concerns theology. Hamas and Hezbollah emerged from very different streams of Islam: Hamas is the Palestinian branch of the Sunni Muslim Brotherhood; Hezbollah is an outright Iranian proxy that takes its inspiration from the radical Shiite politics of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. [color:black]But the groups share a common belief that Jews are a cosmological evil, enemies of Islam since Muhammad sought refuge in Medina.

Periodically, advocates of negotiation suggest that the hostility toward Jews expressed by Hamas is somehow mutable. But in years of listening, I haven’t heard much to suggest that its anti-Semitism is insincere. Like Hezbollah, Hamas believes that God is opposed to a Jewish state in Palestine. Both groups are rhetorically pitiless, though, again, Hamas sometimes appears to follow the lead of Hezbollah.

I once asked Abdel Aziz Rantisi where he learned what he called “the truth†of the Holocaust — that it didn’t happen — and he referred me to books published by Hezbollah. Hamas and Hezbollah also share the view that the solution for Palestine lies in Europe. A spokesman for Hezbollah, Hassan Izzedine, once told me that the Jews who survive the Muslim “liberation†of Palestine “can go back to Germany, or wherever they came from.†He went on to argue that the Jews are a “curse to anyone who lives near them.â€

Nizar Rayyan expressed much the same sentiment the night we spoke in 2006. We had been discussing a passage of the Koran that suggests that God turns a group of impious Jews into apes and pigs. The Hezbollah leader, Hassan Nasrallah, among others, has deployed this passage in his speeches. Once, at a rally in Beirut, he said: “We shout in the face of the killers of prophets and the descendants of the apes and pigs: We hope we will not see you next year. The shout remains, ‘Death to Israel!’â€

Mr. Rayyan said that, technically, Mr. Nasrallah was mistaken. “Allah changed disobedient Jews into apes and pigs, it is true, but he specifically said these apes and pigs did not have the ability to reproduce,†Mr. Rayyan said. “So it is not literally true that Jews today are descended from pigs and apes, but it is true that some of the ancestors of Jews were transformed into pigs and apes, and it is true that Allah continually makes the Jews pay for their crimes in many different ways. They are a cursed people.â€

I asked him the question I always ask of Hamas leaders: Could you agree to anything more than a tactical cease-fire with Israel? I felt slightly ridiculous asking: [color:red]A man who believes that God every now and again transforms Jews into pigs and apes might not be the most obvious candidate for peace talks at Camp David. Mr. Rayyan answered the question as I thought he would, saying that a long-term cease-fire would be unnecessary, because it will not take long for the forces of Islam to eradicate Israel.

There is a fixed idea among some Israeli leaders that Hamas can be bombed into moderation. This is a false and dangerous notion. It is true that Hamas can be deterred militarily for a time, but tanks cannot defeat deeply felt belief.

The reverse is also true: Hamas cannot be cajoled into moderation. Neither position credits Hamas with sincerity, or seriousness.

The only small chance for peace today is the same chance that existed before the Gaza invasion: The moderate Arab states, Europe, the United States and, mainly, Israel, must help Hamas’s enemy, Fatah, prepare the West Bank for real freedom, and then hope that the people of Gaza, vast numbers of whom are unsympathetic to Hamas, see the West Bank as an alternative to the squalid vision of Hassan Nasrallah and Nizar Rayyan.

Jeffrey Goldberg, a national correspondent for The Atlantic, is the author of “Prisoners: A Story of Friendship and Terror.â€

Edited January 14, 2009 by Guest

[M.O.B.E]

Isreal does exist yes. The people involved in creating it were also the people who have started war after through time. The Jesuits.

The Jesuits are fueling this war from both sides. The want to make slaves of ALL of us. Whats the best way to makes slaves? Reduce the population until the number of people left are a controlable group. The best way to reduce their numbers is to provoke them to fight with each other. When they have nothing left to fight for or about, who will they turn to? The ones who have the power, money, land etc. It has been the Jesuits who controlled this for ages.

The Jesuits even put the 3 Books that cause most of these wars together at Nyceah. Assuming this truly is a religious war. The Torah, New Covanant and the Quran. Without one neither of the other 2 can exist. The Torah wouldnt exist if it was for the teachings and stories and most importantly the family tree brought forth in the Kebra Nagast. The Jesuits did not have anything to do with that book.

Let's also keep in mind that WW2 saw Ethopia ravaged by Mussolini and their leader; Selassie, exiled to Great Britain. Thousands of Ethiopians were slaughtered too. Part of the area in question in present day wars were once a part of Ethopia. So does that give the people of Ethopia the right to intervene in this conflict and take their land back?

[Thorgnor]

M.O.B.E. - I'm familiar with the Kebra Nagast, and the ideas of Rastafari (and I believe them). I'm with BWM on this part though, living through laws of prophecied ownership and historical vandetta aren't helping.

Edit; Most, if not all of the old testament Jews/Hebrews/ believers of Ethiopia have been removed to Isreal and that is now where anthropologists study their beliefs and history, unfortunately. I believe Ethiopia to be Eden and the oldest "Hebraic" DNA samples have been found in Ethiopian tombs... not to mention the whole "arc" thing.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Guest

[M.O.B.E]

Rastafari has nothing to do with the Kebra Nagast.

Jah Rastaferai was the name that Haille Selassie took when he was coronated as the Emperor of Ethopia.

The Kebra Nagast is the stories of King Soloman of Judea and Queen Sheeba of Abyssinia and it continues with Melenik 1 and his dynasty.

I agree that isnt helping. Neither are we by arguing bastardized history. Thats why Im trying to present that outside elements that have come into play in this fight. It isnt just about Islam v Judaism, they just happen to be the ones fighting it out while the true perpatraitors of the war sit back and watch. Im trying to show people the bigger picture so as maybe to assure that bias can't be allowed to distort opinions or facts.

p.s. when I called the land Ethopia I should have said Abyssinia but left it out to make things easier.

[Thorgnor]

Menelik

PS. I said "and" they are related strings of oral knowledge now, like it or not, listen to some Sizzla. I first learned about it by talking to dreads in Toronto. I realize the dreads didn't write the book though.

Ever heard of Scaramanga the rapper from NY, AKA Sir Menelik? Crazy style.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Guest

[Thorgnor]

P.S.S. Ras-Tafar-I (as in the first) claimed sacred lineage from the Queen of Sheeba and Solomon, don't you remember your Hancock? It was also recognized as a form of fictive kinship serving to politically legitimize the ruler himself. Brah.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Guest

[M.O.B.E]

Jah Rastaferai was the name that Haille Selassie took when he was coronated as the Emperor of Ethopia.

I was in such a rush to get that down I posted it backwards.

He was coronated as Haille Selassie but called Jah Rastafari when he became king.

Jah= God, King, prince

Ras= to be venerated

Tafari= his given first name

[M.O.B.E]

P.S.S. Ras-Tafar-I (as in the first) claimed sacred lineage from the Queen of Sheeba and Solomon, don't you remember your Hancock? It was also recognized as a form of fictive kinship serving to politically legitimize the ruler himself. Brah.

He didnt claim lineage. The people who brought him forth as a boy did. Bredren

[SaggyBalls]

Hal Johnson Said:

I dont contest that the Jews have a stranglehold on the media, rather Im trying to figure out why it is the palestinian people seem to have no voice here in Canada.

same reason Canada voted with Israel this past week...bad politics.

Gee...Canada seems to have weathered this economic downturn...we're really lucky...

At least Canada's a 'world' player.

Talking about Zionism isn't automatically getting into an anti-semitic discussion. Zionism in this case would tie into the jesuits and Khazar.

If you want to get into a discussion about anti semitism, read this.

The JoceLyn Aryan Nation

Big Wooly Mammoth Said:

Two states, side by side, with open borders. hopefully, it's not just a dream. I'd love to see it in my lifetime.

YESSSSS!!

Me too.

[SaggyBalls]

[Thorgnor]

I would argue that by taking advantage of any lineage for political gain, even sanguine relations, we make political claims to legitimacy. But it's semantics and off topic so