Strange copyright case

[Esau.]

This is the first I've heard of this one, and I must admit I don't completely understand how a postal code could be considered 'intellectual property' able to be copyrighted. Personally, it seems to me that Canada Post's is just concerned about losing the income they get from leasing this information, at least from my limited knowledge on it anyway. Still, it's a strange case in my opinion.

Scans of Canada Post cease-and-desist letter to Geolytica at link below.

Canada Post copyright lawsuit still going ahead, bucking trend from rest of government

The copyright battle being waged by Canada Post over how postal code data is being used by a small website is still going forward, even as the rest of the government is moving toward a more open model of data availability.

The crown corporation is suing Geolytica, which operates Geocoder.ca. That website, they argue, is infringing on Canada Post copyright by making postal code data available to anyone who visits their site.

Geolytica has argued since 2011, back when the proceedings began, that postal codes cannot be copyrighted because they are facts. Just as you cannot copyright the chemical formula of water — H2O — you cannot copyright a postal code attached to an address.

Canada Post disagrees. In fact, in their reply to Geolytica’s statement of defense in April 2012, Canada Post said explicitly: “Canada Post further denies that Postal Codes are facts.â€

And that’s the core of this lawsuit: Is data created by government agencies a fact or intellectual property subject to copyright?

David Eaves, an open data activist and writer, believes that the question about facts as intellectual property could have interesting and far-reaching implications.

“It is an effort to further define what a fact is,†he said. “Does it damage the open data movement writ-large? No. Only if the courts were to say any fact created by government is now [intellectual property].â€

The latest twist, though, comes from Statistics Canada. The national data collector published a significant portion of the postal code database on Feb. 5 on their website, free for anyone to download.

The “Forward Sortation Area†data set, now available to the general public, is the geographic boundaries of the first three letters of every postal code in the country. It defines what M4W means and is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars to businesses and analysts who work with postal code data

But even as that data is being made public, an additional note is being added to it to ensure Canada Post’s copyright claim is observed.

“Users are required to post the following notice whenever content of FSA boundary file at the FSA level is published: ‘©This data includes information copied with permission from Canada Post Corporation’,†wrote Jenny Cole, at Statistics Canada.

Essentially what Canada Post is doing is taking a different tactic on data than any other arm of government: They’re saying they own the copyright on data and it is not, as other outlets treat it, facts.

“Most governments choose to license their data and information. They’re not using copyright to do it.†Eaves said. †Canada Post is actually trying to use copyright.â€

That gives Canada Post enormous amounts of control over how much data is made available, and how much must be purchased. Canada Post charges companies up to $5,500 per year to use more detailed postal code data. According to their statement of claim against Geolytica, that’s revenue they’re frightened to lose.

According to Ervin Ruci, one of the founders of Geolytica, that fear is pushing Canada Post in the wrong direction.

“They can not go on claiming copyright on facts people use on a daily basis,†Ruci said. “I certainly do hope and wish they go the way of opening more of their data to the public.â€

David Fewer, who is representing Geolytica in the proceedings, says that while it’s admirable that Canada Post is making the data available, the copyright issue must also be resolved.

“Any release of data by a public institution ought to be applauded, in principle, as a step in the right direction,†Fewer said. “Note, however, that Canada Post is not to our knowledge dropping its claims to copyright in postal code data, and has given us no indication that it plans to withdraw its suit against our client. Nor does Canada Post’s actions in any way change our client’s position that the suit is baseless.â€

The vast majority of government data is licensed according to the Statistics Canada Open Licence Agreement. That license makes data available to researchers, journalists and members of the general public to use and publish as they see fit. It does not make them subject to copyright.

Eaves thinks that, right now, this is just an example of one organization making poor decisions. But that they are allowed to make those decisions in the context of the rest of the government’s open data plans is concerning.

“You have one organization that doesn’t get it that is trying to do something different. But it doesn’t impede the right of other organizations to make better choices,†he said.

[bouche]

i think google has all that data somehow and it's all accessible through their api's.

here's an example: http://ctrlq.org/maps/address/

[Esau.]

i think google has all that data somehow and it's all accessible through their api's.

here's an example: http://ctrlq.org/maps/address/

They do, but are google one of those companies that pay $5,500 a year for "more detailed postal code data" that is mentioned in the article? At first glance it would appear they do.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Guest

[skelter]

If postal codes are subject to copyright, aren't street names (and other place names) also? Do I need a license agreement to use my address in correspondance or to do business?

Edited February 7, 2013 by Guest

[dave-O]

ask Jaybone to ask his brother

[bouche]

i think google has all that data somehow and it's all accessible through their api's.

here's an example: http://ctrlq.org/maps/address/

They do' date=' but are google one of those companies that pay $5,500 a year for "more detailed postal code data" that is mentioned in the article? At first glance it would appear they do.[/quote']

They probably do considering what they're worth. Twitter's feeds are available through and API and that's everyone's data. They offer it for free, up to a point. When a site pulls enough data requests (1000/day-ish), they have to pay for it. If there's a flat fee for postal code and address data, that there is a good deal for Google.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Guest

[Esau.]

If postal codes are subject to copyright, aren't street names (and other place names) also? Do I need a license agreement to use my address in correspondance or to do business?

I asked myself the same thing after learning of this case yesterday. I suspect the answer is no, since Canada Post I believe assume ownership of the correspondence until it is received at it's destination or returned to it's origination, and since all postal alternatives (UPS/FEDEx/CANPAR etc) pay Canada Post for allowance of their operations within Canada they are technically covered as well. Of course I could be wrong about that stuff, but I swear I read something along those lines somewhere while searching for post alternatives around the last time Canada Post were talking strike.

--------------------------

Apparently from further searching I found this case has been going on well over a year or so.

It occurred to me that Canada Post wouldn't be able to do their job efficiently (very well or at all perhaps) without postal codes. This I could see as an argument for 'intellectual property' claims, as it must cost money to set up and maintain the CPC database (which I suppose could be copyright). On the other hand, they are a Crown corp. originally paid for by the Canadian public and as such the data should be available/accessible to all Canadian's free (for non-profit use of course), in other words - public domain.

Yet again, the idea of postal codes wasn't a new one when Canada Post started using them either, the U.K had been using them before we were. So really it was just the idea that they used.

I stumbled across an article discussing a case that was before the courts years ago where the publishers of telephone books tried to sue other publishers and creators of different telephone number directories and in the end, they lost because telephone numbers were deemed identifiers (or facts), not expressions of ideas. In my opinion, that is where postal codes fit as well.

To be honest, after checking Geolytica's website I really don't understand why Canada Post is wasting their time, and/or their (our?) money fighting this. The website isn't the most user friendly and it showed my postal code to be a half block or so off of where the actual address block is.

[phishtaper]

the postal code is just that, a coded algorithm that contains specific sorts of information. they code province, telephone area code, rural versus urban, and well as certain geographic/census designations. i use them on occasion in my work, mostly as built-ins to geo-spacial analysis programs.

i can see canada post's point here. they are not just a random assortment of characters. they denote a very specific code that canada post developed.

[bouche]

the postal code is just that, a coded algorithm that contains specific sorts of information. they code province, telephone area code, rural versus urban, and well as certain geographic/census designations. i use them on occasion in my work, mostly as built-ins to geo-spacial analysis programs.

i can see canada post's point here. they are not just a random assortment of characters. they denote a very specific code that canada post developed.

They might as well try and own the numbers 0 - 9 as well.

[Northern Wish]

The latest twist, though, comes from Statistics Canada. The national data collector published a significant portion of the postal code database on Feb. 5 on their website, free for anyone to download.

The “Forward Sortation Area†data set, now available to the general public, is the geographic boundaries of the first three letters of every postal code in the country. It defines what M4W means and is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars to businesses and analysts who work with postal code data

This just isn't true. I worked with postal codes a lot a few years ago and this info was available on the Canada Post website if you knew where to look.

You could get household counts, avg income and even maps of the area.

Furthermore if you knew what you were looking for, you could also find info on the LDU (the second half of the postal code) by analyzing the Letter Carrier routes that were available on their website.

Postal code data is very valuable to advertisers so I can see why CP would want to protect its business especially considering the current demand for addressed letter mail.

[Esau.]

For the record, I have no ill feelings toward Canada Post here - I only find this to be an interesting and strange copyright case.

i can see canada post's point here. they are not just a random assortment of characters. they denote a very specific code that canada post developed.

As I've discovered postal codes were used in the 6 digit format, by the U.K & Dutch previous to Canada (Post) using them, which works the same way (specific letters and numbers denoting specific areas, address blocks etc). So, they were not developed by Canada Post. Canada Post used the idea to create their database of codes. I guess you could say they developed their database, to which I would agree.

I can understand their claim if their database was used (which is how CP leases it to those who pay, along with much more precise data) to create Geolytica's website database and service but according to Geolytica they crowd sourced this information which isn't the same, nor anywhere near as accurate, as I discovered and mentioned above. With the right software, or even the knowledge to where to research anyone could table the majority of the 850,000 postal in use currently the same way, though it would also not be as accurate as CP's database, and would certainly be a shit ton more work to do so, but it can be done, albeit very time consuming I imagine.

Telephone numbers are not just random numbers either, yet their directories are not able to be copyrighted, nor are phone books as was the ruling of the courts here years ago.

This could be extended to maps/map books etc. You could research already existing maps, globes or books yourself to create your own map, but you couldn't just reproduce a map/book that was already created, without proper permissions.

This just isn't true. I worked with postal codes a lot a few years ago and this info was available on the Canada Post website if you knew where to look.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what your saying NW, it is true. As many media outlets, including Canada Post, have recently announced. They did release that information through Statistic Canada's website, whereas previous it was only available via the CP website - and as you mentioned, only if you knew where to look. Although Canada Post hasn't acknowledged the information was available publicly via their website (that I could find), it has however made claim such information was available via their website to those companies that paid for it.

[color:red][edit to add]

Here's a quote from Statistics Canada.

“Users are required to post the following notice whenever content of FSA boundary file at the FSA level is published: ‘This data includes information copied with permission from Canada Post Corporation’,†wrote Jenny Cole, at Statistics Canada.

So, as mentioned above the information being made "public" here is with permission and copied directly from Canada Post's directory, not crowd source open data as collected by Geolytica.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Guest

[jaybone]

ask Jaybone to ask his brother

I asked my bro (who is quoted in the article) about this and he replied with the following:

This has to do with a case that we're involved with - Canada Post claims copyright in postal codes, and is claiming that our client infringes that copyright by collecting postal codes provided by third parties into a database that he then sells. It's bullshit for a bunch of reasons, not the least of which is that you cannot claim copyright in facts, even facts that you "create".

[Esau.]

Canada Post is now claiming they own on the term "Postal Code"

“It’s very odd. This isn’t happening in other countries,†said Ruci. “In England, the postal code is in the public domain. Government created these codes and people now have to use them. If they try to create what I call a ‘postal code tax,’ it will be preposterous.â€

The Canadian government’s open data initiative is patterned after a similar initiative in Britain in 2010. Britain opened its stores of government data to citizens in hopes of seeing people use that data to create new notification systems, public awareness campaigns and businesses based on statistics that were previously accessible only to bureaucrats. Postal codes were included in the information opened to public consumption.

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Can+Post+claims+rights+term+postal+code/story

Here's another article worth checking if your interested in this. Talks costs of using CP data base.

Almost exactly a year ago I wrote a blog post on Canada Post’s War on the 21st Century, Innovation & Productivity. In it I highlighted how Canada Post launched a lawsuit against a company – Geocoder.ca – that recreates the postal code database via crowdsourcing. Canada Posts case was never strong, but then, that was not their goal. As a large, tax payer backed company the point wasn’t to be right, it was to use the law as a way to financial bankrupt a small innovator.

This case matters – especially to small start ups and non-profits. Open North – a non-profit on which I sit on the board of directors – recently explored what it would cost to use Canada Posts postal code data base on represent.opennorth.ca, a website that helps identify elected officials who serve a given address. The cost? $9,000 a year, nothing near what it could afford.

Canada Post and the War on Open Data, Innovation & Common Sense (continued, sadly)

[fluffhead77]

One more reason why Canada Post has their head up their own ass. We've been trying to do business with them here at GelaSkins for years, but their small to medium business policies and regulations have forced us to go with courier options.

We're now one of the top twenty accounts in the country with UPS. Think about all the lost revenue, CP... idiots.

oh and FTR, I'm talking about the policy makers not the employees. I like those guys. Except the asshole that never closes our gate, even though he knows we have dogs. He's a dick, but the rest all y'all - thumbs up

[Thorgnor]

I've generally found letter carriers to be the otherwise unemployable, but carry on.

[bouche]

[phishtaper]

hmmmmm. some bad karma here.

[c-towns]

hmmmmm. some bad karma here.

If that was true, wouldn't you have just added to the bad karma by pointing that out? You'd better stop off at the heady vibes bank for a withdraw today.

[Thorgnor]

Me and karma have a deal.

Karma leaves me alone, and I leave karma alone.

Me and Geddy tend to roll with circumstance and free will, but again, carry on.