Indie vs Jam

[jazzinfivefour]

Very interesting. I play in a jazz band and an indie band and have much experience in jam rock. When i play, i indulge in my art to the full extent. There is truely no difference. I'm in that place where no one could find me, they can only hear me. I'm meditating musically to the point of trance and spiritual meanderings. If one partakes in art, ones media is simply a perceptive extention of the real purpose. In saying this, i do notice a grand difference,..... the people who attend and the attitudes (good and bad) they bring forth which filter unto the "community" they've strangely needed to relate with. But this, like the simmilarities of musical indulgences regardless of genera, are too, one in the same. People and thier preconceptions of art and it's gauged omnipitence create and implement these boundries of which we all are confined by.

And this is the aesthetic of my artistic expression, to smash these walls that "fans" have built. I have comingled all these generas, jazz/jam/indie/punk whatever in performance at places where they weren't supposed to be and at these interesting affairs, a clear line is drawn,... the close minded verses the open. Those who relate to music simply know and i beleive they are ten billion miles past those who relate to the guidelines and pretentiousness of a scene. There is also a money factor here. YOu could find some of the best indie bands ever from all over the world, playing at a venue for almost nothing. They are seemingly more friend to art than the comparables. They do it for it and not the cash mark at the end of the night. There is a quality here but some feel it a bastardization of the musicians world and industry. All in all, these are once again, simple boundries people create, why??? people need them and this why we should topple them,... in a gesture of freedom in spiritual and artistic endeavor. They hold folks in circles and let only those who apply properly to the program in.

Red Rover Red Rover let Timmy come over and so Timmy tries but is just not strong enough break through the locked arms of his supposed "friends".

As far as talent goes, who better than who, it's all trivial. Jazz musicians "know" the most about music, case closed, don't beleive me? study it! Classical musicians run a tie but it's different. Jazz teaches the student to learn all the rules, then dismantle them one by one. Indie rockers generally know least but it doesn't mean they don't loose themselves in the art form and create something grand.

Note: Ford Plant Brantford Ontario, almost every kind of music you could imagine happens at this little indie club but I don't see a comingling of scenes anywhere else.

Let's share!

[Mr. Musicface]

Actually CB you made me re-read Booche's comment and it reminded me of something re: fashion and guigsy's comment about "dirty hippies" etc. Last summer I took my wife to the May CTMF. Now, my wife is no fashion slave, she gets most of her clothes from places like Ex Toggery or Winners, but she dresses fairly conservatively and professionally. When we were driving home I asked how she had enjoyed the show, she said fine but something like "next time I'll have to go shopping first for some more appropriate clothes". I asked what she meant 'cus as usual I'm oblivious about such things. She said she was getting definite "looks" from the hippie-attired ladies in particular 'cus she was wearing her leather jacket with slacks and boots (it was cold that weekend remember.) She pointed out that "every scene has a uniform, no matter how much they talk about acceptance or anything goes." It hadn't really occurred to me before but as I say I'm sort of a doofus when it comes to that stuff so I probably just never noticed, but since then I definitely have.

Anyway, the point is again basically backing up with guigsy was saying that the lack of acceptance or open minded-ness goes to more than just musical taste, and it definitely goes both ways. Those of us who are mainly there for the music may not always notice it, but I can say from that experience that I did.

- M.

[Mr. Musicface]

What's the title of the Sloan tune surprised I didn't pick up on that before.

"Coax Me" - here's lyrics and TAB if you're interested:

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/Grenfell/guitar/coaxme.txt

Great song.

- M.

[Mr. Musicface]

Everybody knows it's all about the post-irony.

Hah exactly, it's like the scene from that Simpson's episode at the Hullabalooza music fest:

Disaffected Youth #1: Here comes the cannonball guy. He's cool.

Disaffected Youth #2: Dude, are you being sarcastic?

Disaffected Youth #1: I don't even know anymore.

[SaggyBalls]

here's the big deal...indie rockers craft songs. it's all about playing a song over and over the way you're 'supposed' to play it. look at the fembots...awesome band, alt.country indie rock scene...amazing stage sound, great performance...what ruined me is that they get paid more than a lot of bands and they play for an hour tops. people go 'whoa' because they've beem kicked in the ass from hearing the album faithfully rehashed. i loved seeing them but it seemed to be a job to them more than playing music. a 'jamband' would make the songs run on and stretch it out to have a better time and not 'play it right'

when you write songs for people to hear the same way you can appeal to more people, especially when you look hip. hipsters are cool people too...but there's certainly hippy style. it's just as ridiculous, but easier on the laundry bill.

so when it comes down to it, it's about marketability (hippies are seen as careless apathetic slobs that can't bathe and listen to wanky guitar psychadelia while hipsters are just seen as snobs that like to dress nice...so to some attitude doesn't make up for it) and palletteablity. case in point - Grand Theft Bus.

ask them what kind of band they are and i'd bet you they wouldn't say jamband. they craft songs but have freer parts and grooves. the less 'groovy' it gets the more the hippies complain it's 80's euro rock and the more non-hippies get into it because it appeals more towards 'rock' and not 'groove'...go to an indie rockout and you'll see few dancers. a lot of swayers.

I say that I personally prefer the jam scene but i wish our bands would try to craft more songs, put a bit more into the details of their playing and onstage chemistry (like Hiway Freeker used to), and perhaps try to look like they're having fun on stage rather than just lookiung down at their instruments all the time. hippy bands often have little stage presence. indie rock bands have to kill time with audience banter and stylized antics. i love seeing bands rock it, put a good SHOW on, and dazzle me. not just trip me out with a delay pedal. i do that on my own.

so where we hear great music, others need a more engrossing package so that the average joe won't feel so awkward and has something else to focus on.

just remember...hippies seem to be a bit more 'free' - i think we can have fun more easily because we dont' care as much about what other people are looking at or like. we're pretty lucky to have that going for us but we've gotta realize that not everyone's like that and there's so much animosity out there that we need to be able to be more inviting, even though we are if people come up to us and start talking or dancing

when you go to a show it's gotta be a show. not just a bunch of shaggy guys playing cool music or a hipster in a cardigan strumming out some well crafted songs. there's a happy medium.

look at the outbreak of rock in the past 2 years - awesome rock albums. what did the jam scene come from? rock and roll baby! there's no reason we can't get that gap bridged.

we just need to understand how to make ourselves more energized and understanding of the little differences. if someone looks like they're smug and stylish, try to avoid calling them brother. just pass them the spliff and make friends. who knows...maybe you'll find a common bond where the initial hippy lingo would have turned them off just as much as an initial snobby vibe could turn you off.

[Esau]

fu©k em all.

Listen to bluegrass....

"It's not the band I hate, it's their fans"

I know I've said that on many occasions when talking Phish.

just remember...hippies seem to be a bit more 'free' - i think we can have fun more easily because we dont' care as much about what other people are looking at or like. we're pretty lucky to have that going for us but we've gotta realize that not everyone's like that and there's so much animosity out there that we need to be able to be more inviting, even though we are if people come up to us and start talking or dancing.

hahaha,yeah right,come back to earth Rob,this scene is the worst for labelling people,even during the GD years,a clean cut guy or gal was accused of being a narc,or not a fan since he or she didn't wear a tye dye,have long hair,do drugs,tour,know every song etc etc.I get asked if I am a biker all the time and when I say I toured with GD for a few years and that Dylan is my all time favourite people are shocked or surprised,hell I have even been told by some people they would not have ever approached me at a show due to my appearence but since I was standing with someone they knew (or thought they knew) to be a "hippie" they did,only to ask what type of bike I rode... and actually the person only had dreads and listened to hardcore punk mostly but was hanging out with me for the night.

[shitidiot]

Instead they compose and craft brilliant works of art and dutifully rehearse and practise for years to bring those works to life. These guys don't just show up in a town plug in their instrument and jam away.

this is what i hate about rock writers. you don't know sh!t about what it's really like. you just write some sh!t you thought up and write it like it's fact. you don't know sh!t!!

tND sold our the Bowery Ballroom 9 times

UM sold out the Bowery Ballroom

I like the indie scene there is lots of talent out there but there is just as much or more crap in the scene.

[Tickler]

Jam fans pride themselves on loving great music but are actually surprisingly closed minded besides a handful of crossover bands or supposed influences. The musicianship can range from adequite to exceptional but often doesn't translate to record.

Whether you want to believe it or not one of the biggest differences is that indy musicians are often good enough that they could likely make it as 'jam' musicians playing to drugged out hordes but they don't have to because they write brilliant songs and put out great records. The same is not true in the opposite direction.

I disagree, although I am sure there are some indie musicians that could make it in the "jam" scene, part of what turns me off from the indie scene, is hords of people drooling over some guy/girl who writes a song that is as simple as it gets and that these people sound like they just picked up their instrument 3 months ago. But maybe that is the beauty of it, I don't know. As a whole, the jam scene musicians could play the indie stuff with their eyes closed, but I doubt it vice versa.

See Grand Theft Bus for example. They have been labelled a jam band, for God knows why, but they are amazing songwriters. I am hard pressed to find better ones around at the moment. Yet they are continued to be grouped with the jam scene and therefore get no respect/recognition that they deserve from the rest of the music world. This is because most people cannot get by the labels people tag on bands and just listen to the music for what it is.

I think that jam fans are among the most open minded music lovers as a whole. Look through their cd collections and you will find anything and everything in there.

There are extremists on both sides and the few boneheads should not be made poster children for the groups as a whole.

[Tickler]

People like good sh!t, regardless of the genre. Marketing and labels is all about selling the bad sh!t, piggybacked on the reputation of the good.

Amen to that!! Best comment yet IMO.

Both sides have great and extrememly talented musicians and songwriters. Different strokes for different folks as some might say.

[ggrtrhhrtgg]

I am dead serious about them being better musicians. You guys just don't get it. You don't get the legitimate perspective of indy musicians who deserve the praise they get. Like take Do Make Say Think for example, they are all highly educated musically, play in a variety of bands, tour North America and the world (I mean they're playing the fu©king Bowery Ballroom for christ sake) and deservingly. These guys have a far superior understanding of their instruments, timbre, tenor, pitch, dynamics, volume and tone - in short everything that makes 'true music' what it is. Those skills if deployed to simply titillate the audiences brainbones would be mind numbingly good. Instead they compose and craft brilliant works of art and dutifully rehearse and practise for years to bring those works to life. These guys don't just show up in a town plug in their instrument and jam away.

you know something, I have some constructive criticism for you Zero. You appear to me, (correct me if I am wrong) as a inspiring writer, however, whenever I read your material on this board, I find it is missing something. You do have an incredible grasp of the English language, when you pull out obscure words, you do use them in there proper context, so kudos to that. In my opinion, (which I am sure to most counts for very little)--your writing is good, if not excellent, however, you need to learn how to "make love" to the language. Instead of using the voice of arrogance (which equals ignorance as we all know) you should refrain from criticizing other's opinions. You will find it hard to capture an audience if you do not give them the respect they deserve, it kind of goes both ways I think. You undoubtedly know alot about music, but so do most of the people on this board (excluding myself) and an omnipotent voice is not becoming. Anyhow, I hope you don't take it the wrong way, this is merely an opinion from someone with similiar interests.

[guigsy]

in terms of labelling, i think we have to ask ourselves the question "which scene, or genre, or whathaveyou, gets the most ass?". and whichever one you decide gets the most ass, thats where you want your band to be labelled, because at the end of the night, no matter what if you were good or you sucked, you're probably at least gonna get some ass from some slutty scenester. and im sure when you're on the road, touring around for who knows how long, that can come in real handy.

[MarcO]

hords of people drooling over some guy/girl who writes a song that is as simple as it gets and that these people sound like they just picked up their instrument 3 months ago. But maybe that is the beauty of it, I don't know.

As opposed to hordes of guys and girls spinning around all blissfully stoned to another tension-and-release jam?

Simplicity is beauty. Muddling up your masterpiece with fancy frills and extraneous complications just to prove what an accomplished musician you are are the hallmarks of poor taste.

As a whole, the jam scene musicians could play the indie stuff with their eyes closed, but I doubt it vice versa...... See Grand Theft Bus for example. They have been labelled a jam band, for God knows why, but they are amazing songwriters. I am hard pressed to find better ones around at the moment. Yet they are continued to be grouped with the jam scene and therefore get no respect/recognition that they deserve from the rest of the music world. This is because most people cannot get by the labels people tag on bands and just listen to the music for what it is.

let's see, their website offers links to jamhub, jambands both com. and ca., jambase, and hipstar. a look back at touring sees multiple appearances at CTMF and a spot a moedown. Seamless sets at hippy-friendly bars all over the place, constant double-bills with other "jambands". Songs that run long, two set performances, sanctioned taping. Gee, d'ya think they might get grouped as a "jamband"?!? ::

[SevenSeasJim]

[quote

let's see, their website offers links to jamhub, jambands both com. and ca., jambase, and hipstar. a look back at touring sees multiple appearances at CTMF and a spot a moedown. Seamless sets at hippy-friendly bars all over the place, constant double-bills with other "jambands". Songs that run long, two set performances, sanctioned taping. Gee, d'ya think they might get grouped as a "jamband"?!? ::

MarcO, i'm all wet from this dripping sarcasm.

[Mr. Musicface]

I think the biggest shame is that these labels are assumed to be exclusive, and that there's an implicit assumption that certain characteristics flow to artists that get put into certain slots on the tree: "jambands play well but write sh!tty songs" or "indie rockers have great songs but they can't play worth a sh!t." It's a bunch of bull if you ask me. The guys in Fembots or Royal City (both "alt-country" bands I guess to perpetuate the cliche) write amazing songs but can play the ass off their instruments when they want to. John Popper from Blues Traveler is known to the world as a scary-fast harmonica player, but he's written some absolutely GORGEOUS songs IMHO (check out "Sweet Pain", "Yours", "Pretty Angry", lots of others).

Associating yourself with a scene as an artist, or being associated with a scene by your fans is initially great 'cus it gives people an entry point to understanding what you do. But then it's hard to get over the cliches and labels that get applied and understand that there's great diversity within every "scene" or "style" or whatever the hell you want to call it. GTB and others associate themselves with a scene 'cus it might be one aspect of what they do and it might be one aspect of who their friends in the community are.

Think about this: if Dave Matthews had been buddies with Perry Farell rather than John Popper and Trey in the early nineties, DMB might have easily ended up on Lollapalooza rather than HORDE - not too much of a stretch to see them on a bill with Jane's Addiction, Violent Femmes, Fishbone, etc. especially back then. Now, whatever you think of Matthews, this would have certainly had implications for the scene 'cus a lot of younger folks in the last 10 years have gotten interested in jam music 'cus they heard "Crash" on the radio. Good or bad is arguable, but things would have been different.

- M.

[secondtube]

i like the fat cats.

[zero]

I haven't even read all the posts in this thread yet just thought I'd get back to Friendly's comment. So in an effort to shed some light on how much sh!t I don't know here's a glance at the last time the New Deal played any venue.

Darren Shearer got to the hotel and took a sh!t. Jamie Shields was in his room calling his wife. Dan was fu©king Martina some good in the shower. Friendly was still at the desk because he checks people in and out of hotel rooms for a living. After rounding up 3 espressos 'a longer' Eric brought them up to the rooms of the artists. Jeff was rounding up his gear and getting ready to go down to the venue. 20 minutes later they were all in the bus. Jamie was reading Harper's again and talking about the 'real' deal in Afghanistan. Eric didn't know what the hell he was talking about. Dan and Jamie had a quick chat about Stan Getz but it wasn't very erudite. They pulled up in front and after stowing their gear in the green room were on the stage a surprising twenty minutes later for sound check. Jamie was toying around with a new patch in his Nord Lead and Dan was trying to get that George Benson sound out of his Roland The Bass product. Darren spent a while adjusting his high hat because he was trying out a new one. They played a Ravinish jam for twenty minutes and went to the band room. Handshake drugs were exchanged and they emerged before the show over-refreshed.....

How much longer do you want me to go on with this Eric? Glad to know how you feel now. I've watched you slowly turning into a holier than thou industry cat and am sure that evolution is not nearly complete. Be certain that I most certainly DO get what is going on and that any of your bands music means everything and nothing until one of US has made something of it. I am the enemy and don't you ever fu©king forget it. Oh don't worry I won't let you.

[gentlemonkey]

I am glad there are good people like friendly bridging the gap between bands like the newdeal and regular folks. I've seen him do his job, and he's not only good at it, but still cool as iced bananas. Are you gunning for his position?? oh cultural watch dog.. you are definitley a Euro- road manager in training, and I fear for the first hotel manager/ bar owner that fucks with your sh!t.

i think this whole notion of Versus is ridiculous. Yesterday I listened to Marc Ribot, Pavement, and Kimock band. and not once did i consider their differing social relevance(s). but i guess music to me is just something to listen to and be made happy by.. analysis sucks the sweetness right out of its a$$hole.

ps- tickler- grand theft bus utilizes the marketing options that the jam market presents.. hence their affiliation. not to mention that they improvise.. true- less now than before, but dont tell me you're surprised by the classification?!

[c-towns]

All this being said, any idea as to how we could go about trying to infiltrate the two (now established) different genras within the same "scene". Like it or not the similarities in the 2 scenes are very very similar. I think some form of bond between the two could do both scenes wonders, I'm really thinking about canadian touring bands here. I guess I'm thinking about tours west of Toronto (and western bands doing eastern swings), cause you guys seem to be doing mighty well for yourselves, I'd just like to make the western tours more inviting and profitable for the bands I love to see.

[paisley]

like I said, do it yourself in a new venue... somewhere comfortable and laid back... easier than it sounds if you really want it to happen... and you can make a few bucks in the process (Pepperjacks in Hamilton was also a restaurant with no entertainment 2 or so years back)

once you have a happening scene you'll have lots of converts to hang out with

see who's touring and will draw for the first couple of shows, find a venue, figure out expenses and make it happen (if venue A doesn't work out, find a venue

maybe talk to U F Production or Marky or one of the other promoters and see if they have any tips to add

edit to add:

maybe also try the throwing a big house party or a few idea, centered around a jam vibe where you invite a bunch of select folks who don't look like they'll show up packin or with 20 backward baseball caps in tow... wicked discs all night, then some choice DVDs for the early morning

jazz fans, funk fans, some blues fans, experimental fans

betcha there's already at least one crew (if not more) in town doin it up on the weekends you don't know about who're wishin the same as you are

[gentlemonkey]

i dont know if its even possible to intentionally merge scenes, ctowns. large scale improvement in the Calgary jam scene would be great for the bands, and you guys as fans. Your motivations are obviously well intended, i just think that there are inherent beliefs with both 'scenes' that make them unattractive to each other, so its kind of impossible. its a person by person thing, like ottawa was..

[c-towns]

How about this? How can I get the crusty indie hipster that just opened the perfect venue to book a jam show on a night that indie isn't playing?

[paisley]

could try that too... especially if the venue, its staff and the vibe are right

I'd say just start tryin, you'll figure out something you're happy with eventually

[shitidiot]

means everything and nothing until one of US has made something of it. I am the enemy and don't you ever fu©king forget it. Oh don't worry I won't let you.

thank for the run down of my day, you go it so right. your so smart, so cool and so hip. how do you manage to stay so in the know? by the way what paper do you write for? the music is for the fans, not some dick head wana be rock writer. i like you luc but your really lost your sh!t of late. maybe you should stop and think once and a while befor you blab you fat mouth.

[zero]

Dude I like differences in opinons and I like that we can both be hard people and disagree. We both bring real value to this scene from different perspectives. You facilitate the musical experience by making the bands day go better. You actually make the performance sh!t or brilliant because the smoothness or heinousness of their day is bound to come out in the performance. But don't even fu©king try to toy with me. I have got you so dead to rights in my sights with a fu©king bazooka of hyperbole it is funny. Face it you have a good understanding of this music but you can't describe it to safe your fu©king life. I may not understand things that would be impossible for me to understand were I not behind the curtain. Another part of your job whether you want to admit it or not is to be a procurer. You are also tasked with confidentiality and not exposing information about your band. Like when your bus driver was so fu©king cocked with booze after a show that you got stopped at the border for hours. I held on to that one for a real long while until you decided to cross the streams. How much else do you think I know? How much farther do you want me to go with this? I may have lost my sh!t but I found it at the same time. My sh!t is tight and yours is a sputtering warm stream of diarhea.

[ersh]

This all (the beginning of this thread anyway) makes me think of hanging out in the Yukon with The Constantines where singer/guitarist Bryan Webb and I were sitting late night discussing our 'scenes'. I told him we're a band who just wants to play music, regardless of the 'jam' label - we stretch out our music when the moment feels right. He told me that they're a band that just wants to jam - but always get billed with punk and indie bands. We both agreed it was great to meet each other and made plans to play together back home...

That weekend both bands 'jammed' together on stage a few times, bonded with the help of booze and isolation, and just had a great time. The people in Dawson city didn't care that they were an 'indie' band or that we were a 'jam' band - they just enjoyed the music and were quite thankful and appreciative.

What's my point? I don't know.... just that it was great to interact the way we did with a band from another scene and not have to deal with any scene or label bullsh!t. We're all big fans of the Constantines and the music of 'other' scenes - in fact the only 'jam' music you'll find in our cd collection on the road is the the good ol' Grateful Dead. We enjoy playing shows with bands outside of our scene as well... maybe this will help bridge the gap between jam and indie. Here's a start.....

BNB w/ Elliott Brood - Sept 23rd - Rivoli

The Constantines w/ GTB - Sept 25th - The Marquee

How can I get the crusty indie hipster that just opened the perfect venue to book a jam show on a night that indie isn't playing?

Show him that you'll fill his bar with beer-swilling hippies. That's the language reluctant bar bookers speak.