kung Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Not sure if everyone's seen the evolving thread 'acceptable content in the forum' on jamhub but it's worth a look. As opposed to my typical hippy baiting schtick I actually just tried to open up about my concerns about censorship, actual honesty and openness. In the process I've just had to open wide while people shit down my throat. Give it a read I think you'll see that at some point people just gave up trying to adequitely respond and resorted to fart noises and sophomoric shit. This Unibonger fucknut (I will pummel that guy if I ever meet his illiterate ass) pretty much realized I'd outed him as an idiot and threw his arms up. BB couldn't respond - in a thread about tolerance and acceptance no less - with anything other than to call me a retard. Shane had to out me as a junkie to comfort himself about the repressive hypocritical environment he's helped to inculcate. If you get the sense I'm at the end of my rope it's because I am. I have absolutely had it with the inability of people to self-consciously reflect on our culture. If I were writing about punk, hip hop, electronic, anything other than self-congratulatory jam twattle this wouldn't be an issue. Just don't cloak yourself in respectability and try and claim that this is an open and accepting culture because it really is the farthest thing from it. quote: If we continue to verbally assault rather than engage those who speak for themselves this will become a very small group of self proclaimed very nice people trying very hard not to step on each others toes.JamHug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
show---whore Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 now thats a keeper. the best one you've up with yet. quote: Shane had to out me as a junkie to comfort himself about the repressive hypocritical environment he's helped to inculcate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubnut Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 i agree with you FULLY. re: open and accepting culture. in fact it's more of an elitist club where it's "leaders" define who and what is acceptable. this lifestyle we have chosen is based on our love for music and community not politics and hypocrisy. Fuck 'em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Freak Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Keep it up and it's a paddlin'. Y'all just ponder on that for awhile.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frumpyone Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 you guys are a bunch of douchebags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kung Posted June 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Thank you I actually really needed at least one or two reasonable people to put their eyeballs on this one. I don't pretend to make out like I'm coming out of this squeeky clean- I do think BB/Shane and the JamHug crew did a pretty good job of making themselves look like tools though. In their mind either you dish out editorial handjobs to all your buddies all the while fretting over whether people will like you or your an outcast. So be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gentlemonkey Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 here here!! down with the peoples that tells me what to like, what drugs to take and how to behave!!! what the fuck are you people talking about.. if you aren't enjoying the music you're supporting, then go find something you actually like. Don't try and make it seem like there is something more going on (here or at jamhub.ca) than there is, because there isn't. it's people working hard *for free* trying to make a scene happen because they love the music and the people.. and it is happening, and people are allowed to say what they want. and all this weird bullshit is complete nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
\/\/illy Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Well written and well stated Kung. I don't feel like going over to Jamhug and reading the thread but I agree with your summary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcO Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Not well written and not well stated. Other than attracting attention to himself, why the fuck would Kung cross-post another board's squabble over onto this one?!? "If you get the sense I'm at the end of my rope it's because I am. I have absolutely had it with the inability of people to self-consciously reflect on our culture." Who fucking cares?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogatthestation Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Now that was well written and well stated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
\/\/illy Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Interesting position MarcO. You see, I interpreted Kung's statement (and interpretation is always dangerous) to mean that she/he gets frustrated by the "everything is peachy keen in the world" attitude. Sounds like he/she want to have some objective discussions about things. Ones in which people agree and disagree without name calling. That's how I took it. Maybe I was totally wrong: I was only reading it through quickly. It seems to me that you and I had a similar discussion once in which you voiced some frustration with not being able to express a negative opinion about anything around here. Am I totally off base? It's possible, I was at AMMF all weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesehead Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 wait wait... people are arguing, and I'm not the cause? things ARE getting weird... des phantomes dans l'ordinateurs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcO Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Originally posted by \/\/illy: Interesting position MarcO. You see, I interpreted Kung's statement (and interpretation is always dangerous) to mean that she/he gets frustrated by the "everything is peachy keen in the world" attitude. Sounds like he/she want to have some objective discussions about things. Ones in which people agree and disagree without name calling. That's how I took it. Maybe I was totally wrong: I was only reading it through quickly. It seems to me that you and I had a similar discussion once in which you voiced some frustration with not being able to express a negative opinion about anything around here. Am I totally off base? It's possible, I was at AMMF all weekend. oh no man, I don't think it's a matter of being on or off base. If you thought it was well written and stated, that's just fine with me. I have enjoyed some of Kung's perspectives, many others less so. For me, though, threatening to wreak violence on an "illiterate fucknut" is bad enough, but where the initial quarrel didn't even take place on this message board, I would argue it negates any call for objective opinion. It's almost as bad as reveiwing a BNB show you didn't attend. You and I may have had a nice discussion about the perceived lack of objective debate in this scene but that was a private opinion. I don't mind your raising it here but I'm not looking to develop that argument at this time. The climate's a bit raw right now, you know? And besides, I feel it can easily be counter-productive. I think a lot of people enjoy digging music together, pure and simple. This isn't a second year Critical Thinking course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
\/\/illy Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Whew, okay, I'm dropping out of this one. Things are definitely a little raw around here. Sorry if I raised a point from a private conversation MarcO. I was just looking to illustrate how I had perceived Kung's statements. As far as dragging a thread across from another site, I don't disagree that that was not necessary. I don't feel like getting into a battle royale in here so... Love and peace! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gentlemonkey Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 cheesehead, i checked out your website, very cool! Why no mention of the dead or cheese?? just wonderin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kung Posted June 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 Nerves and emotions are frayed, perhaps needlessly so. I may in fact owe one person or another an apology but I'll attend to that privately- and not for the reasons you might expect. As for cross posting surprisingly this board seems to be a more 'progressive' membership and I thought some sentiments could come up here that people couldn't bring themselves to express. At least one person in this thread has admitted frustration about not being able to express anything other than positive support- it's rather telling that they don't want to pursue it here. I think on the whole people are concerned about hurt feelings, everyone getting along, supporting the scene through blowing smoke up people's asses etc. As for gentlemonkey that's someone whose opinion I respect and he's obviously come out hard. As for whether there's more going on here or not I completely disagree, besides the fact that it's your job to play the fucking music and someone else's to give it meaning. I would like to say that if a band like Nero (for instance) wants to relegate themselves to playing for university students who constantly turn over in bars for eternity so be it. I think being included in this scene is advantageous in terms of bookings, turnout and a stigma in terms of being a part of a musical community that is not taken seriously by the music press, cogniscent listeners and the like. Why is our scene not taken seriously? Because we refuse to turn a self-conscious eye towards ourselves, this the case in the states and north of the 49th and it's the major Achilles heel that threatens our scene. Again cultures like punk, independant hip hop, jazz, electronic, all have mechanisms to weed out bullshit and fake hype (i.e. listeners who actually identify when something is on and something is off). I'm not making this shit up, hell I'm a freelance writer who deals with editors all the time and I know what they think of our culture even if they don't state it outright. I've also spoken to many musicians we respect who share this view of the mixed blessing associated with having a jamband audience. If we're content to keep promoting 'grey market' festivals and popping pills until the music sounds good it will truly be our loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoMack Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 I share a lot of your ideas Kung. Tough love man... I've often said that Trey could piss on his guitar and it'd be the best show ever.... But, I should also admit that I've been called an asshole on more then one occassion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 being an admin on jamhub, I really dont like being grouped with this crap...but I really have no opinion... I still love ya Kung. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermontdave Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 That's heavy Kung. The industry has never been able to fully exploit the free form, jam scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
\/\/illy Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 quote: Originally posted by kung: If we're content to keep promoting 'grey market' festivals and popping pills until the music sounds good it will truly be our loss. Wow. I've tried articulating that exact point on too many occasions to count but I have never managed to state it so eloquently. (Perhaps that had something to do with all the pills I had popped ) In all seriousness, I think that's an excellent point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booche Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 There's fuggin hypocrisy within this hypocrisy for Christ's sake! My lord As for the idea that 'our scene' is in danger of the eyes of the greater good/evil because we arent honest with ourselves, I agree that it isnt taken seriously if "Its all good, brah" I know you dont agree with me Kung, but there arent enough people that go out to gigs anyways, so why write about shite when it is shite? Maybe it was shite because I was having a shite night. That isnt the bands fault............ I read sooooooo many poor reviews from reviewers of the 'other side' that are solely based on factors outside of the band they are reviewing. Why let this scene degrade to that? If I dont have a good time, I dont blame the band, it may not have been a night for me to enjoy, the band might have had a poor night, but I bet you 20$, it was for a million other reasons than what I read in most reviews. I will NOT write a poor review of a band. If they arent for me, they may be for 20 other people, or 20,000 other people. I wont slash a band, but you can tell if I dont get off. I WILL write a review of a great night though. More people should support bands on the road. Its their livelihood................ And who cares if the media takes our scene seriously? They are only going to be serious when money is involved anyways. Its about the greater green, and the ONLY ones that should be making that are the bands themselves. Just email me, or call me if you want to hear more out of me. I am trying to be as simplistic as I can. darkstarotherone@rogers.com As for Kung's side of things, I cant remember where I heard/read this quote, but it is about the Dead in the mid '80s Buddy is saying that he knew the Dead scene was fugged forever, the moment the audience went NUTS during a Jerry solo, and it was by far the worst (he was really sick I guess) solo he had ever heard Garcia play to that point in his life. (Actually, ironically, it could be that Rock Scully book) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondtube Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 silly children. things sure have gotten weird around here since i went back to school... You need a secondtube moderator back here again? I wonder how many of you wish it was just my typical bs stirring shit up around here, rather than (i guess) what has been said in the last 36 hours.... i will be back, dont worry.... showW, you are a dirty hippy though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.Huxtable Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 Kung, you have some very valid points and I will remember something you said a long time ago, forever. You said that the scene can not possibly evolve if we keep blowing sunshine up every bands ass. That really stuck with me and I would 100% agree with that. The truth is not every band is great. Thank gawd! How would we appreciate the good bands if we didn't see the not-so-good ones? I make it my practice to not blow sunshine on a band that I didn't enjoy (and there are many bands that I've seen and not liked), but that being said, I prefer not to write negative comments that may dissuad others from seeing them and making up their own mind. Who am I to judge a band for everyone else? After-all, I don't really enjoy Radiohead or Ween, but thousands of other people do. Just because I don't like them, doesn't mean they suck. Also, to judge a band based on one performance can be misguided. They could be having an off night (being in a band myself, I know this happens regualrly) or I may be having an off night. I will always write a review or make a post when I've seen something I have enjoyed. No one gets hurt and people may be turned onto something new, plus it's always nice to relive a good time. I know, that getting up on stage and playing a gig isn't easy. Making it to regular rehearsals isn't easy. Writing songs isn't easy. Finding a group of people that you work well with isn't easy. But that does not mean that people shouldn't try it. Not everyone is capable of creating music that appeals to me, but I certainly have a lot of respect for people that try. I wouldn't want to bash anyone just because I didn't like their music. On the other hand, I'm not going to write a glowing review of them either. If I don't like something, I'll usually just not say anything. That's not necesarily being nice to them, but it's not being mean either right? It's okay to be kind and use a little discretion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bouche Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 "I think on the whole people are concerned about hurt feelings, everyone getting along, supporting the scene through blowing smoke up people's asses etc." One of the major things I appreciate of this scene and everyone is part one of that quote. It's true that people are concerned with being happy, making people happy, sharing good feelings....all that. However, I don't believe there is smoke going up asses to acheive that. I see that it is all good and honest. I do believe it's healthy to say good things and I don't think it's necessary to throw in a wrench just to stir things up. It should go both ways. If you honestly have something good to say, say it. If you honestly have something bad to say about something, you should be able to say it. However, I don't think that anyone needs to force themselves to find something negative just to create havoc. Blowing smoke up an ass is just as useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Gruvsten Posted June 4, 2003 Report Share Posted June 4, 2003 quote: Originally posted by kung: Again cultures like punk, independant hip hop, jazz, electronic, all have mechanisms to weed out bullshit and fake hype (i.e. listeners who actually identify when something is on and something is off). Whoa i think this is way off. First of all, although the notion of blowing smoke up asses is visually stimulating, it means nothing to me. It sounds like some bastardized phrase conjured up from cliches. And if you think there are checks and balances for quality within those music scenes, yer nuts. Are you telling me Sum41, Avril Lavigne and Creed are the cream of the music world that has risen to the top? I don't think so. Look at the techno scene, it started off with unimaginative crap, it's absolutely flooded still with crap, but whole genres of important music have come out of it. I think i've heard/seen just about equal parts shit electronica/techno and wicked stuff....and everything in between. I was a music snob and elitist for quite awhile before I smartened up and started to understand that it would get me nowhere. I know, love and appreciate good music. What kind you ask? Overly complicated Zappa-esque full band time-changing craziness. 3 note hooks in the simplest pop melody. Heavy crunching guitars. Squelching rezzed out drum and bass. Heart-wrenching acoustic songs about love. I mean I like tons of stuff on a constantly rotating and evolving basis. It's a part of my life. Some songs/artists speak to me because of the importance of their songs, others are because of the importance they have in the soundtrack of my life. It's an exciting and bedazzling part of the journey that accompanies everyone if they are listening. As for checks and balances, an example: I applaud your outspoken Ween-itude, i think they are brilliant when they shine. But then again the Hall & Oates thing makes me think you are missing a couple strands of dna. This is opinion. One day my girlfriend loves the music i'm playing, the next day she asks if I can wear headphones or leave the room. That's opinion. Think about all the times you've played music that kicks YOUR ass to a friend and they are underwhelmed by it. The reasons for liking music are too individual, even within a scene. I mean sometimes I go to see a band just to be with my friends and party. Not everybody goes out to see live music to be aurally challenged by new ideas. Sometimes familiarity is a big comfort. Songs you can bob your head too. Songs your friends know, and you know that they are having a good time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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