Dr_Evil_Mouse Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 Growth... I suppose it's naturally essential, just to bring everybody up to where their material wants and needs lie, and to keep the rolling ball safe from inertia. I read this thread, though, with the sound of Phil Lesh's voice (courtesy of the Ottawa Public Library, to whom I owe $32 in fines ) talking about how the Dead lost sight of what they were best at and kept rolling into bigger and bigger venues to keep the whole infrastructure that had been growing around them humming - and then the magic was gone, or at least seriously and ultimately irrevocable compromised. That's obviously a hyperbolic example, but I think it does speak to the importance of avoiding growth for growth's sake on an abstract level (as Edward Albee said, growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell). I do appreciate the organic quality of how music spreads on the internet, to stoke interest later on in parts unknown, but that may be coloured by my own predilection for live music, which is how I think music should always be best appreciated, and where musicians ought really to make their living (as teachers do by teaching, or speakers by speaking). Do we all dream of the Big Cash Cow? Moo. How do cows get treated again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booche Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 You know what Bouche, having played with your IPOD this weekend, I have to ask......How much of that did you buy and how much did you OiNK?CoP is looking for some input here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AD Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 I don't know how many of you bought the Wolf Parade on disc or downloaded their material, but because of your recommendation, I BOUGHT IT from iTunes. Who won there though? Did the Wolf parade get anywhere near 1 buck from my 10 dollar purchase?I'm also gonna likely pay 10 bucks or more to see them at Barrymore's when they hit Ottawa.Sorry to butt in here, but glad you like the band!! It's a great CD! Check out the end of Same Ghost Every Night where the distorted bass takes that super low note.... Best point of the record, I bought the disc for that moment alone.AD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothedShredder Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 i hate to disagree with you shredder, but i kinda have to. certain canadian bands, who play certain types of non main stream music NEED to break into the US market if they hope to be able to continue touring and actually earn an amount of $$ that doesn't require supplemental income. There are 30 M people in this country spread out over a huge geographical area. and yeah like you said, touring's expensive. i think if bands don't make it big doing their own thing in canada AND the US, their music might actually start to change to become more listenable to the pop loving ear. who knows, maybe it's artist growth? maybe it's people who love making music subconsciously turning away from the wall they've been walking into for years and finding a path to success they can walk down and gain some ground on.yeah the US record label system sucks and is a problem, but dealing with the reality we live in and finding success to enable a voice for change i think is the answer (which i think is already happening).Oh I agree with you that they have to get to the US, no doubt, but with the current playingfield, our bands don't have the freedom to play Detroit, Cleveland, and Buffalo, let alone play the dozens of other small towns on that circuit with town student populations greater than the total population of some must stops on the current Canadian circuit. When you say break into the American market, I envsion a flight to capitol records to sign a record deal, and get the big bucks and a North American tour... in terms of Gas consumption, and keeping the ego's to a minimum, I'll take the "break into the US" which involves a warmer reception (and no beuracratic fee's or arguing we are 'stealing jobs from their musicians'), and the ability to drive around Lake Ontario whenever we want, to play to whoever we want. Sell the CD's from the van and take the $10 profit for the band, and the travel expenses, instead of lopping off half of it "for the industry". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velvet Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 Fact: 200 debut albums are released per day by the five largest record companies in the US.Am I in the right thread here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bouche Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 You know what Bouche, having played with your IPOD this weekend, I have to ask......How much of that did you buy and how much did you OiNK?CoP is looking for some input here.I would think that this is a good time to do some math. I really don't know exactly how much was ripped off of purchased CD's, downloaded as live recording via Bit Torrent, or Oinked. For example, \/\/illy and Leanne gave me a copy of Radiohead's OK Computer (they had 2) which I added to the iPOd library (we listened to it on saturday which got krazy krissi jumpin' BOOM!), and I don't think I ever bought Hail to the Thief, Idiotech, or Amnesiac yet I listen to those quite frequently. I just had a 400 dollar weekend in montreal seeing 2 radiohead shows and a couple of Slip things so there is money moving around due to my musical interest.I really don't know if it matters whether I buy something or just hear it on my own terms, but if I like it, I'm there supporting the fuckers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothedShredder Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 (edited) Pay toll now, ask questions later! From Todays' Globe and Mail:Ingram: Sweden considers P2P feeMATHEW INGRAMGlobe and Mail UpdateDownload at will:Sweden's justice minister said recently that he would consider ripping up that country's recent law banning the downloading of copyrighted music and video over the Internet, and replacing it with a mandatory charge on all broadband Internet users. Those revenues would then be used to compensate artists for the unlicensed use of their work -- much as the Canadian copying levy, which gets tacked on to every blank CD and DVD sold in the country, is designed to help compensate artists whose music or video is shared over the Internet (it only covers private copying, however, and only applies to music).Justice Minister Thomas Bodstrom told a Swedish newspaper that while he favoured the current legislation, he was willing to reopen the issue if the country's opposition parties wanted to look at a different method of handling illegal downloads. The Left Party has said that it wants to get rid of the current law because it hasn't done anything to stop illegal file-sharing, while the Moderate Party says the issue needs to be looked at again so that Sweden's copyright laws can be adapted to recent technological developments.In other file-sharing related news, Sweden's crackdown on The Pirate Bay -- a popular website for movie and software downloaders that the government raided recently -- seems to have had little effect. Although the country's police force took most of the service's computers and closed its doors, the site was back up within three days using servers based in the Netherlands. In fact, according to another Swedish news report, The Pirate Bay's traffic has actually increased as a result of the publicity surrounding the raid. Edited June 13, 2006 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booche Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 I just had a 400 dollar weekend in montreal seeing 2 radiohead shows and a couple of Slip things so there is money moving around due to my musical interest.How does Radiohead see you pay for travel, hotel and booze/food/strippers? They dont get a dime.I'm there supporting the fuckers."I just dont buy their cds"Good math buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothedShredder Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 (edited) How does Radiohead see you pay for travel, hotel and booze/food/strippers? They dont get a dime.But atleast the auto manufacturers, gas companies, hospitality industry, bars, restaurants and prostitutes from the place where Bouche lives/visits benefits from the trip, not some swine sitting in his leather office in Los Angeles in New York taking 90% for him and his cronies in California. Edited June 13, 2006 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothedShredder Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 The second point kind of disappears upon itself: clearly if someone is inclined to download the new Red Hot Chili Peppers cd, they want to have a copy of it. But they want it for free. If they didn't want it, they wouldn't download it in the first place. Who wants to own music you don't want, regardless of the price?I think this is a really good point... but shouldn't I be able to 'test drive' this product? A CD concievably can be played thousands of times... what if I get a CD and I don't like it and never play it again, well then I can sell it, but the band won't get any of that money... or should they? Either way, I see the 'test drive' method as a really effective way to limit the amount of production on these material things, and to me I see this as achieving a greater goal of environmental responsibility, and I refuse to believe I'm settling for a 'lesser of two evils', I don't believe that by test driving music I'm doing anyone any harm.I think we should all be allowed to test drive music, and when it's really a good ride, we ought to impose a certain moral discipline which acknowldeges that CD's are a legitimate way for Bands to make money and there is a value added to contributing (artifact, artwork)... I just think that threshold ought to be when a band is good enough to take the chance to see live. If it's a great live show... pick up all the CD's at the Merch Table. Currently that threshold is held by the record companies, and through the online distribution channels... which hopefully we can all agree remain really sketchy!My most recent downloads included the bands that I don't know too much of playing at Bonnaroo. I'm going to listen to these tracks on the way down, and if I like the tunes, I will check em out live. If the performance is great, I'll pick up some albums from the Vendors... Call me crazy but maybe I only trust people I meet in person, bands included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcO Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 So if I decide today to rent a car, drive to Ottawa, stop for food along the way, get a hotel room and then go steal something, that would be ok? All that money I spread around would justify my illegal act? All that money that is now heading towards the oil, food, rental car and hotel "leather" head offices located in NY and LA at a 90% commission for "some swine" and his cronies. But I can rest easy knowing I at least didn't support the evil recording industry?Am I getting this logic correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcO Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 The second point kind of disappears upon itself: clearly if someone is inclined to download the new Red Hot Chili Peppers cd' date=' they want to have a copy of it. But they want it for free. If they didn't want it, they wouldn't download it in the first place. Who wants to own music you don't want, regardless of the price?[/quote']I think this is a really good point... but shouldn't I be able to 'test drive' this product? A CD concievably can be played thousands of times... what if I get a CD and I don't like it and never play it again, well then I can sell it, but the band won't get any of that money... or should they? Well first of all, if you bought a CD but didn't like it, that's all part of the game of pursuing music. Like paying to see a movie, you're going to like some and not like otheres but that is part of the experience of going to the movies, no? Sure, sell the CD. You've already paid the royalties at point-of-sale so the artist isn't getting ripped off.As far as "test driving" music goes, well I don't see how you need to download half of Radiohead's catalogue in order to get a taste of whether you'll like them or not. Most bands post a few songs to their official websites. Actually, myspace is excellent for this too. Again, if you want to hear a few tunes from, say, the new Paul Simon CD, there are legitimate, sanctioned, artist-approved avenues that will allow you do that. But downloading his entire CD from oink isn't a "test drive". No way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothedShredder Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 Yeah that's basically it... I don't like the recording industry in it's current state, it hasn't responded in favour of its customers, or its suppliers since it became "big, international buisness"... of course this is my opinion and the actions I choose seem to support this... I see this as evening the playing field between the have's and the have nots in the industry, namely the big sucessful bands that have more money than they can deal with, and the grassroots bands who typically have to work outside of music to make ends meet... I think there should be a paradigm where greater signifigance is place on the artist and less on the artifact they create... therefore I support a show first revenue stream, not this outdated, industrialized version which suggest that I should still pay .99 cents a song online even though most of the cost associated with keeping 'on par' with buying a physical cost are removed... they're greedy, I can proove it, and I'm not going to support it... I'm putting my weight and money behind the shows, where i know where I buy a CD, the artist gets the 90% of the profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcO Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 well, you certainly are not going to get much debate from me as to the greedy standards of the recording industry, we're on the same page there my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothedShredder Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 I'm guessing your calling me greedy too. All I know is a spend all my time working in music, and my bank account continues to shrink... greed/survival, perhaps I'm just not good at either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcO Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 I never called you greedy. Where did I do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothedShredder Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 (edited) Sorry I read between the lines... I just couldn't understand how you turned your position so quickly from the "leather swine" argument in the previous thread, to there's greed in the industry, in support of my argumet (maybe?!) in the next... my bad.But to be fair, under the law, I am 'greedy' cause I admit to doing what I do... but I feel it's an unjust law, in that the law (intellectual property, border issues) is hurting the people, not preventing them from harm. Edited June 13, 2006 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
can-o-phish Posted June 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 Woah...information overload but again, this has given me more insight as to how some people approach the download/freeload/copy areas...Guess it comes down to each individuals views, ethics and morals and how each of us justify our decisions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneMtn Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 I thought of a point (in my own defence, having admitted that I often burn discs, even though I try to buy them later).Believe it or not, there is not a single CD store in this town. If I want to buy discs, it's either:1) drive to another town;2) order online; or3) buy off the band at a show (which is what I do).No doubt, though, I'd buy more often in the first instance if I lived in civilization like the rest of you. (I'm sure I'd still copy some, though, until I had the chance to purchase directly from the musician.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamilton Posted June 14, 2006 Report Share Posted June 14, 2006 But atleast the auto manufacturers, gas companies, hospitality industry, bars, restaurants and prostitutes from the place where Bouche lives/visits benefits from the trip, not some swine sitting in his leather office in Los Angeles in New York taking 90% for him and his cronies in California.While I certainly agree that 90% is exorbitant and that the artists deserve to receive much more money for their music, at least they are getting 10% - which is significantly more than they are receiving if you download their music from oink or wherever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamilton Posted June 14, 2006 Report Share Posted June 14, 2006 ...and I don't think I ever bought Hail to the Thief, Idiotech, or Amnesiac yet I listen to those quite frequently. I just had a 400 dollar weekend in montreal seeing 2 radiohead shows and a couple of Slip things so there is money moving around due to my musical interest.I really don't know if it matters whether I buy something or just hear it on my own terms, but if I like it, I'm there supporting the fuckers.But paying to see a band in concert shouldn't excuse you from paying for their CD. That like saying that it is okay to steal a dryer from Maytag because you already gave them money for the washing machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bouche Posted June 14, 2006 Report Share Posted June 14, 2006 But paying to see a band in concert shouldn't excuse you from paying for their CD. That like saying that it is okay to steal a dryer from Maytag because you already gave them money for the washing machine.i'm not looking for excuses. the fact is, I cannot purchase ever single cd that is out there. sometimes I will download a some inferior mp3's without packaging and this always goes back to the "I wouldn't have bought it anyway so there is no real loss". I'm mostly downloading live stuff that is being recorded by theiving audience members.it is not at all like taking a dryer from a store. if there was a used Maytag dryer on the side of the road, it would be picked up in no time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau. Posted June 14, 2006 Report Share Posted June 14, 2006 I'm mostly downloading live stuff that is being recorded by theiving audience members.Interesting take on tapers.Question, if its all good or not an issue, why is the oink forum here not public? Just curious is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AD Posted June 14, 2006 Report Share Posted June 14, 2006 there are secret forums on here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau. Posted June 14, 2006 Report Share Posted June 14, 2006 Since its been posted about in this forum, I see no problem posting a link to this thread.http://www.jambands.ca/sanctuary/showtopic.php?tid/227675/post/297616/hl/Oink/#297616Not a link to the actual forum... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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