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Brokedown Social Scene


kung

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Geez, I remember reading an interview with Trey where he really talked up Pavement (the former "indie-rock" band that is, as opposed to the thing which the tires on your car make contact with), so already having some friends who were into them, I decided to give em a serious listen, and before I knew it, I was listening to Pavement more than Phish. I haven't heard any Polyphonic Spree or Broken Social Scene, but I'm interested now and will check 'em out. I like and listen to all sorts of stuff, but then it's also true that most of the live music I check out is jamband related stuff.

I don't know how easy it is to generalize about the folks in the whole jamband scene. I mean, there's the heads you could recognize from a mile away, what with their natty dreads and colourful garb, and then there's folks, sort of like me, who don't look like they belong, but man do they love that 9-3-77 Eyes. But they also love puffing one down and throwing on some Mogwai or Sigur Ross, or Miles, or Neil Young, Sonic Youth, or whatever and ever...

As Davey Boy pointed out Miles' pointing out, there's music that's good and there's music that's bad.

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quote:

The look may be shabby, but it's still a "look" and it's actively cultivated.

Yeh, my wife pointed out how weird she felt at the May CTMF when it got a little chilly 'cus she was the only one wearing a leather coat - not a biker jacket or something, like a nice black Danier coat - 'cus she looked so different from everyone, particularly the girls there. And honestly, I never noticed how much there's a total uniform particularly for the heady ladies. I guess it's no different than any other "scene" but surprised me a little.

Every culture and sub-culture has its fashion I guess, it's pretty much inevitable. But the one thing with the "hippie" (for lack of better term) type scene is that they're generally not looking at you weird if you don't look like them and you're in the middle of their scene. Like, I don't think my wife got any weird looks over her jacket, she was more conscious of it herself I think than anyone else was - which I have a feeling might not be the case if you dropped the average hippie-girl into the middle of goth night at the Bovine.

- M.

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I'll say it like so many of you have: This is an interesting thread. Not because I feel there's anything wrong with the so-called Jamband scene but because it demonstrates that we all draw different things from it.

Appalachian pointed out something interesting that begs further discussion: The jamband look/feel/see/do/wear being actively cultivated and perpetuated.This happens on both sides of the stage. I need only say tie-dye to point out one aspect of that in the audience, but with the bands themselves it's a little more subtle. It's like saying that we are all so free-willed and groovy/vibey that we're conformists. I'm harkening back to the discussion a while ago about drugs in this here scene. How many of us saw our first jamband because a friend told us "they were great to see on _____"? Conformity runs rampant, but it's no different or worse than any other scene.

And in reference to Mookie's point about Jamband members being musicians and not performers I say "Puh-lease". We have plenty of musicians out there (including those who "think" they're musicians), what we need more of is performers. I'm not speaking of mushroom imagery, kuroda lights or costume shows in roller rinks, I'm talking about live music being performed and not played. We're all aware that the unique point of the jamband is that it makes new music onstage at each performance. We don't pay our cover and stand in front waiting to hear live reproductions of an album. But many of us are moving beyond the desire to hear live takes of studio songs, instead choosing to hear entirely new music at any given show, and therein lies the performance. Speaking only for myself, I go to a show to see a band perform, to get up onstage and make music that is exciting and different, that pushes boundaries and makes me blow my load over and over from the best aural sex ever.

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sorry to be an ass, but can someone read the URL at the top of my web browser. I thought it said jambands.ca, but maybe I was wrong.

I am a musician and listen to all sorts of stuff from Magma to Notre-Dame-du-Grass and Orff to Ben Mondor, but on this board, I just assumed we were focussing our discussion on the bands we have in common. I don't think anyone has ever had a problem with discussions of other bands, but it doesn't come up because this is primarily a site for bands who jam.

That being said, I go to shows to see bands who mix things up. Seeing Ben Harper live never used to di it for me because he played what was on his album and had no showmanship, and only started to jam later on. With Phish, it seems these days you have to go to at least a few shows to increase your chance of seeing something special and different from the past few years. This may be why people like to go on tour (that or the partying). If a band has theatrics it is great, but I sill need the music to move me. I would see a Gwar show, but only once. Likewise, if the some band puts on a crazy stage performance, but plays their songs the same way everytime, I'd rather not go more than once, and probably wouldn't travel to see them. But if a band can jam out and happens to just stands still on stage, I don't care. I don't need flashing lights a la CK5 and I don't need to be pandered to. I want music and musicianship. I want to hear how the bass player and drummer link up and see how they might or might not look at each other when they do. You can't download their facial expressions (although I hear lots of good Phish footage is available for this tour).

I really doubt that anyone on this board is exclusively into one or two bands or even just jambands (but Lord knows there are enough jambands with enougb material to keep you listening for awhile). I also doubt that anyone on this board is closed-minded towards any styles of music (except maybe over-produced pop-hip-hop-r'n'b-disco-funk with attitude and flare). So what's the problem if we choose to use this forum to discuss that which links us all up?

MTC

And concerning the hippy dress-code, ummm...yeah, where have you been? I'd wager there are few other scenes where the dress was more conformed. But I find the hippies are more into the partying and dancing and the drugs than in the music, so how do they fit into this discussion? and I'm not talking about the kids who wear a tie-dye. I mean the nasty little dread-locked thingies on Phish tour who dust each other and and say Molly about a billion times an hour.

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Hmm, rather than getting defensive, consider this. I think Kung is trying to find a way to combine a couple of movements in music that he finds 'profound'?

As they said in Star Wars, "Stay on target"

He has raised some interesting points over the past few months, and one of them being (I think this is his message)

'For a scene that brags about itself for being so open to new music, and introspective, why is it so many of us are closed-minded?'

With that in mind, how do we "wed" these two "spirits" that he is speaking of?

Its an interesting concept, and one I certainly dont have much of an answer for. The only way I really could explain, is to tell my friends of any band that I take a liking to. Whatever label you want to label them as.

But, should you start to grow out of the scene you are currently encompassed by "are you going to drift back to vacuous middling for just the music's sake" if you are "blown away" by new music?

This seems to be a theme in your life for the past while Kung, and I dont think you should if you dont want to. I too have grown away from music that was a big part of the majority of my life. However, seeing that an awful lot of musicians are on the road trying to make a living, I will go out as much as I can. I may not get off on every band, or even most of them, but I like to have a good time, see some friends and dance should the muse serve me. Everyone should support local bands as much as possible.

That being said, Caveman and Slamming Jack are at the Dekcuf this Saturday.

One man gathers what another man spills

[Wink]

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On the whole I'm just really touched by everyone's candour. Who would have thunk it note to self: sugar with medecine sugar with medecine. It seems like alot is actually going on RIGHT NOW in music history. MK and I have been having an engaging personal dialogue along these lines for a bit now. Then Kate Holloway who many of you know from her piece on Nero just got back from IT and is detecting a sort of groundswell of backlash/support against/for big/small festivals. It's funny that it's all so well synchronized and that everyone is

drawing from a similar well.

I guess I'd like to give thanks for some of the 'personal' advice too. Friends will arrive and friends will disappear. I also don't really so much want to apologize as express kinship with anyone I may have 'dis'missed in the past. As a non-music maker (except in life) I don't always appreciate how difficult it is to create even 'middling' songs. I guess I just always figured I'd rather not play than do anything even remotely half assed. And the Funkin' Shoes crack earlier wasn't me some guy just ran up to my terminal posted it and ran away- he looked suspiciously like Dr. Hux to be honest. I am reaaaaally digging the Carini from Japan that just came on and the Morning Dew that followed. Funny it (realplayer/The Argus) chose to play those two songs of the 884 on the hard drive.... oops Metric's the People just popped on. I won't even tell you the lyrics- I wonder if the Argus really has an eye on you and me.

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"It seems like alot is actually going on RIGHT NOW in music history."

Always has been, there's just seems to be more Melody Makers now, with this whole age of information shit.

And by "right now", I mean, music is always about the here and now. It's going to continue to evolve, no matter what any of us do about it.

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quote:

Originally posted by MarcO:

and I didn't know Chester THompson was w/ Weather Report.

Wow, this *is* a great thread!

He joined on the album "Black Market". Weather Report was a bit like Spinal Tap in the drummer department - not that any of them spontaneously combusted or anything, just that they had a whole fucking lot of them.

I used to get confused between Chester Thompson the Zappa/Weather Report drummer and Chester Thompson the Santana/Tower of Power keyboard player. "Wow! this guy is *really* talented! Oh... two different guys...". But then, I'm a stooopid. [Roll Eyes]

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Whatever it is, it's a pretty good scene. I've scene a few in my time, scene-it before and will scene-it again. When it goes commercial, it will turn to shit like all the others so enjoy it while it lasts! Here's the trend:

Classical turns to shit, becoming Show Tunes,

Blues turns to shit, becoming R&B,

Rock turns to shit, becoming Top 40,

Jazz turns to shit, becoming Schmatlz,

Funk turns to shit, becoming Disco,

Punk turns to shit, becoming New Wave,

Rap turns to shit, becoming Hip Hop,

Grunge turns to shit, becoming Alternative

Yes, there are good Show Tunes, Top 40, etc. so don't bother with the flame about your favourite R&B artist or whatever.

When something becomes popular, it needs to be watered down for the masses, who can't tell the difference between the real artists and the fake. It's all about $$$.

Steve

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It sounds like what we're talking about here is taste.

What we like, what inspires us. How we like to spend our time.

Diversity is great, sometimes too though, is singularity. Have you ever listened to the same song over and over again till you couldn't take it anymore? This somehow seems weak and closeminded, maybe it is, but sometimes a mind must be closed for a bit. Just to get through a tough time or a great time, who knows? How we feel changes the art we ingest. (I actually think that's what makes art---but that's another stream)

It seems to me that this acknowledgement of the role an audience plays in the creation of art is the true hallmark of this community.

The danger that I notice however, is that when mixed with liberal doses of modern mainstream thought this acknowledgement borders ever so closely on entitlement. It's getting to the point where some artists are percieved as so almost subserviant to the audience that when they don't produce what the audience expects (set list, stage antics etc.), then it's a bad show or whatever. Isn't this what most of us dislike about pop music?

The coolest artists, I think, are the ones who have audiences that expect to be surprised.

Phish and Flaming Lips seem to fit this category quite nicely. Now sometimes you want to hear Chalkdust and Hood and sometimes you want them to hang people on bungee chords and make sonic madness for an hour.

But, when what you want syncs up with what they want---that's the shit.

I think that's what informs my obsession with music, form Springsteen to Spirit of the West to Moe. to Hammel on Trial.

The thing is...by definition you can't demand that momment. That demand will ruin it. You just have to trust that it'll happen, eventually.

And while you're waiting it couldn't hurt to poke around for new music.

Who knows?

It's all Miles Davis' fault anyway.

(I'll show you a Kind of Blue.)

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Hey there! I think this is a really interesting thread, but I thought I should throw in a little reality check before we get a bit too self congratulatory - being that this is a music board for intrinsically (for the most part) non-mainstream music, it's not too surprising that there are lots of folks here who have tastes for other music and pop culture that is non-mainstream. I'll bet if you dig into other boards with music or media fans from other "scenes", they'll have a healthy contingent of Trailer Park Boys or Coltrane fans as well. I have friends who are deep into alt-country or hardcore or whatever other scene, but they can talk to me at least semi-intelligently about Widespread Panic or The Slip or New Deal same as I can talk to them at least semi-intelligently about Royal City or Fugazi.

That said, I do think this is an interesting discussion. I guess my take on it is, everyone brings their influences into things and they stretch naturally. Me for instance, even though I'm mainly a harmonica player, I grew up being way more influenced by Rush and ELP than Howling Wolf or Sonny & Terry (even though I love old blues as well) which I think has an effect (good or bad) on what I do as a harp player in a "jam" oriented band. (BTW, as a aside I just bought a really interesting prog-rock DVD featuring Steve Hackett with John Wetton, Ian McDonald & Chester Thompson - any music geeks out there that can tell me TWO bands each of them has played with?)

A lot of folks in the scene are into house, country, electronica, whatever, and it all comes into play. kung, when you posted that Hillside review and somebody put in a link to Metric, I downloaded a few of the tunes and it took me back to my days of loving 80s synth music 'cus they are obviously so influenced by that, but they bring a really fresh spin to it as well. (It also got me to turn on my old Juno-106 for the first time in a while which was cool!)

I guess my point is that what I really love about music, and what I suspect a lot of people here love, is to hear things that are new but remind of us of things we love at the same time, which I think is what the best music does. My two-cents on the topic.

Peace,

Mr. M.

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There certainly isn't enough time to head out and discover something on my own. That would entail plenty of travel and free time.

So right now, I'm really excited as all hell to be going to moe.down and catching things that they enjoy like the Flaming Lips, or learn something from They Might Be Giants (I've already learned that the sun is a mass of incandescent Gas), and then there's those guys I've been hearing of lately from ottawa....nemo?

I can't get over the amount of music outside of the realm of phish/dead I've been turned on to enjoy so strongly in the last few years. I'm sure it'll only grow.

It's threads like this where I read of bands that I've never heard of before.

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let me start by saying I love the lips and i love phish and the dead. i agree that everyone should be checking out a lot of the bands mentioned here, but when I am going out to party and see a dance band, how i usually think of a jammy band, i dont want some weird wannabe doing kicks on stage, or pretending they are the who.

Should 'jambands' start posing like rockstars, (even though the dude doing the rock kicks looked cool kung, its still posing in my books), and should start being conscious about fashion and sexiness? and theatrics? so that the indie press and fans will understand the scene maybe, and we can breathe a sign of relief that there is a 'jam' section in exclaim, and a segment on the 'mew music'? this is funny. I have a very diverse taste in music, and like almost every band mentioned in this thread. what I love about jam music (and what sets it apart) is-

a)- the players are genuine- often fat and ugly, skinny or bald. i like that. not wearing a costume- because they arent preformers- theyre MUSICIANS trying to make new legitimate music every night, thats the focus.

B)- they do their thing, and i get out of it what i want/can. its honest music and the band is improvising in some manner. thats all i require.

c)- the bands are not creating an image with the intention of selling it- which a lot of the indie bands mentioned do, and thats fine. its funny how the flaming lips are only now truly getting famous after 20 years on the scene because of their crazy stage show. Theyve been bomb all along. 90210 knew it.

d)- its underground.. its not totally appealing to look at and its not about scoring chicks and its not about getting record deals.

so, i just think we can appreciate both for what they are. i really dont need leather pants, bad hair, and 10 minutes feedback breaks at jam shows- inless its neil young. theres the man that i suppose bridges the gap.

anyway, ramblin;, great thread.

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when it all comesdown to the wire, it's all about laziness. people being too lazy to listen to the radio when it's on and think that the crap they might be hearing isn't good...it's just there. it's laziness in the respect that so many people...jamband kids, skate punks, goths, art rockers, whoever - tend to stick to a category for the most part. I know I have mostly college rock/jazz in my collection but I love to see jamband shows...maybe i'm an anomaly but good music is good music to me...

it's laziness in the fact that people aren't interested in hearing anyhtng new because they don't want to 'waste their time' with music they might not end up liking...

it's laziness in the respect that people might not listen really hard before dismissing it.

case in point: when i fiurst heard drums and tuba i had a mass of CD's from the radio station i was working at. vinyl killer was one of em and i gave it away because the synth sounds were too rough on my head but now i hear it and it makes sense...it just took me hanging out with jeffery (from BNB fame at the '01 labour day CT fest) listening to the album on someone's car stereo...don't really know the guy, but i hung around and chatted and thought it was a show...it just takes the perspective to listen rather than categorize or assess/judge.

I hope that everyone here's not too lazy...i mean some of us puff down and act like procrastifarians at times...put on somehting cool/heady and forget about the cool/heady disc we got 3 months ago. 2 years later we either bring it out as a hidden gem or get rid of it(some of us...i still have my paula abdul cd), It's totally easy to get into a band and ignore all other music. that's definitely a problem/concern i've noticed with music fans, and as much fun as it is to get into a band/player try to remember how special it was when you first heard someone you truly respect and admire...and just think. that's on person. there are 6 billion and rising on the face of the planet...there's bound to be someone else that'll make you need to change your pants. just ask fellow music lovers...we'll all help out right??

I think one good idea is possibly starting a database of picks...i guess it's like the 5 disc rotations we often see but so often those are filled with the same old bands(who rock btw) and loads of shows or the same CD's we've heard or heard of. maybe we need to find links to other pundits' sites where they have their picks. I think my fave resource used to be the CMJ top 200 but i think that might just be in the CMJ new music report...and that's not even in newsstands... CMJ - new music first

the first 20 are listed on all the charts...the top 20 lists are better resources online...I remember when rolling stone and spin used to be the best place to find 'indie' or college-rock. now it's a great place to find ads. anyone have any suggestions on how we can get our 'scene' to encompass even more(assuming that's one of the intentions of the thread)

I tink performance is key. I've been to shows where I've seen bands play and where i've seen bands perform. performance tends to show more determination and focus. bands that just play tend to get a bit monotonous...case in point - the new deal.

when they're on they're performing...taking it down way low and bringing it way up...but i've sen them where it's just the same trancey lines to keep people moving...the players are rarely as enticing and inspiring as the performers, but when an artist performs there's also a great deal of convistion to the song or to SOMETHING and the best jams come out of nothing at times.

Being a player(yay bass guitar) I've been involved in acts where playing and performance have been seperate. From my perspective, whenever i haven't had enough time to perfect my music or when he band isn't as tight as possible i've felt like I played.. there was a strong 'play' element because we were just new and trying to find ourselves. When i've been involved in more song-oriented endeavours i've felt like I was performing...I was playing a distinct role with specific tasks to fulfiul. Now a jam can be a performance but that's the difference between jammin' and totally giving everything you have to letting your emotions flow from yourself through your instrument. Often times in a band situation that takes a certain air of chemistry that's incredibly hard to find. When all the members 'click' on many levels and understand where things are going without having a clue what's about to happen. for that to happen players have got to be comfortable and at ease with themselves. I guess that's why I've seen so many people play shows and i've seen so few performances in comparison...that's only from what i gathered from the show.

for example, NERO would be the performance while CAUTION JAM would be the play. sure caution jam can rip it but there's a certain level of atmosphere and mood that can be shaped and moulded.

anyone see oh suzanna live at the church of the redeemer? THAT'S a performance and in my honest opinion, we need more of that. true passion and dedication to the music and not just the party. it's so hard to do in canada when bands aren't interested in playing the shitty hick town gigs to afford going across the country, so to afford playing musicians need to get 'real jobs' while that can often be holding them back from being as true to themselves and their craft as possible. i see a lot of people stretched thin from having to juggle bandmembers' schedules and their own lives with jobs and taxes and bills. this country could support live music but until we start playing the crappy gigs, the crappy gigs won't get any better. I think we need to get some kind of artists' group together to link up artists with other artists trying to play, be it opening gigs, a place to crash or contacts in cities for gear or other helping hands. I have no idea where anyone'd start...but what does everyone think?? artists gettingtogether to help artists create better art and possibly making more impactful performances? (sure we need the fun but we're not all rockstars yet...how much time do ou have on the road to focus to music? if you can play daily and work out ideas and songs rather than just rest up for the gig and the afterparty your music will surely improve. i hear the nero boys play on the bus while on the road. is there a PA in the van?? THAT'S a good idea. only playing at soundcheck and at the gig...makes you maximize other time, but if music's your job/passion then why not play all the time and get the things right that need to be and then have time to explore ideas rather than just trying to halfassedly explore because you know how to noodle. anyone can learn to play the guitar but true music takes a certain focus and understanding that you can only get through practice AND play. maybe i'm not the bass god that anyone should go to for tips but i thikn i understand a whole lot that some people don't, but i still have my shortcomings and I've got to improve and work on it...an ethos i wish all musicians lived by.)

getting fans together from differnet scenes or fanbases??

having some sort of press database to link up entertainment journalism??

I'm sure jambands or jamhub could, with proper planning, get sponsorship from big media for webspace and grants to afford paying staff. Approach SOCAN or the AF of M...big business?? get to industry people and those involved with artists(agents, recording houses, managers...link up reviews of venues and the management, reviews of artist services, etc...sure music business seems shady but that's only when people are in the dark. there are so many musicians/artists/authors in this country compared to most other nations. If we have the right idea maybe we won't sequester ourselves anymore be it whichever scene you're talking about. of course there are the hardcore fans, but they tend to intimidate the novice listener through overadamant promotion...people have got to get their music fix or find new stuff somehow...word of mouth seems to work best...as well as a friendly messageboard or 2...but the average joe has no clue who phish is or even perhaps what reggae is other than bob marley...if we wereto get artists involved with each other we could have stronger festivals and shows, and get people out to experience something truly interactive rather than just sucumbing to a movie night. another case of laziness?? movies, TV, drinking for no other reason? i'm sure people want to be a part of something and they want to be entertained and enlightened. why not try to get them out to a 5 dollar show somehow? the trick is HOW to get the knowledge to them or how to get them interested. if people were to know that the critics have taste then would it be safe to say that people'd take a chance??

another issue i have is with peopl ejustifying burning 20 phish shows because that's the same cost as a cd and has more listening time...you could listen to each show once or listen to a cd 20 times. the same amount of listening time, AND maybe you'll get something new from someone you don't know about. sure it's a risk but the music effeciency is ultra lame. i've heard oit so many times before and whenever i pull out a CD from someone that my phish or dead loving friend has no clue about i always get asked if they can borrow it...but when i have a show that they like i only hear 'that was a killer solo!' if anything at all. so go ahead everyone and get your moneys' worth...but music is truly intangible so therefore its value is only perceived. i find the times i'm most satisfied is when i'm the least sure about somehting and take a chance.

if you already have good taste then your choices are bound to rock.

We've got to stop being the procrastinating noodlers that we're perceived to be at times...sure there's time for pasta, but not at every meal. the jamband moniker is only rough because we know crappy jams are abundant and most people can't see past that.

yay longwindedness!

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TW LW 2W PK WKS

  ARTIST + TITLE LABEL 

1 1 1 1 9

  RADIOHEAD  Hail To The Thief        Capitol 

2 2 3 2 5

  SUPER FURRY ANIMALS  Phantom Power        XL-Beggars Group 

3 16 - 3 2

  DANDY WARHOLS  Welcome To The Monkey House        Capitol 

4 4 8 4 5

  GUSTER  Keep It Together        Palm-Reprise 

5 3 4 3 6

  JAY FARRAR  Terroir Blues        Act/Resist-Artemis 

6 - - 6 1

  MASKED AND ANONYMOUS  SOUNDTRACK        Columbia 

7 7 5 5 8

  EASTMOUNTAINSOUTH  EastMountainSouth        DreamWorks 

8 25 - 8 2

  WEEN  Quebec        Sanctuary 

9 6 6 4 10

  NATACHA ATLAS  Something Dangerous        Mantra-Beggars Banquet 

10 5 2 2 10

  BRUCE COCKBURN  You've Never Seen Everything        TRUE NORTH 

11 10 17 8 5

  FIREWATER  The Man On The Burning Tightrope        Jetset 

12 15 - 12 2

  CIBELLE  Cibelle        Six De grees-Ziriguiboom 

1320 - 13 2

  CHRIS SMITHER  Train Home        HighTone 

14 26 - 14 2

  MICHAEL FRANTI AND SPEARHEAD  Everyone Deserves Music        Parlophone 

15 - - 15 1

  BJORK  Live Box: 1993-2002        ONE LITTLE INDIAN 

16 14 36 14 3

  JOE ELY  Streets Of Sin        Philo-Rounder 

17 8 9 3 11

  GILLIAN WELCH  Soul Journey        Acony 

18 36 12 12 8

  BRITTA PHILLIPS AND DEAN WAREHAM  L'Avventura        Jetset 

19- - 19 1

  KELLER WILLIAMS  Home        Sci Fidelity 

20 24 21 16 14

  RICHARD THOMPSON  Old Kit Bag        spinART 

the top 20 college radio chart...spearhead/keller?? great resources if only you know where to look...and my my...the ultra painfully named canadian singer-songwriter...this is an american publication too guys. go canada!

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