Legal Advice

[bONES]

Anyone ever had to deal with a neighbour who doesn't respect property boundaries?

I discovered last night that the guy who owns property adjacent to mine up near Haliburton is cutting a road through the forest. He's not selectively cutting trees with a chainsaw, but rather mowing down everything in the way with a big piece of machinery. We do not have a fence through the woods to identify the property line, but he's obviously crossed on to my land and cutting down my trees!

Trees cannot be put back where they used to be alive and growing.

I'm more than pissed and ready to fight the asshole, sue the bastard for damages or vandalize his machine. Or all of the above.

I need advice. I have called the municipality and they have not returned my call.

My plan is to go up there this afternoon and confront the guy, but I could use some advice if anyone else has found themselves in a similar situation.

Stn.Mtn or MoMack...what kind of lawyer do I need to get a hold of?

Thanks for any help you can offer. Hopefully by the time I get up there this afternoon I have calmed down a bit. I am shaking with anger as I type this.

[Freak By Night]

Here's some advice: Don't confront him while he's holding the chainsaw.

Also, wait until you hear back from your municipal officials.

[ollie]

Also, wait until you hear back from your municipal officials.

Also, don't wait for them to return your call. Keeping calling them.

Hope you get this sorted out.

[Northern Wish]

My parents neighbors pulled some similar shit- basically clearing an entire slope so he could see the water from his office upstairs. They were reported to the Niagara Escarpment Authority and fined heavily. The fine money was used to replant the slope, but to this day he still has a pretty clear view of what he was after in the first place.

The larger problem is the prick had way more money where that came from.

He started WebMD.

[phishtaper]

As strange as it sounds, he may actually have the right to do this. The path he is cutting may be designated as an "inland right of way" or something like that.

Years ago, our neighbour did the exact same thing at our cottage. he clear cut a wide roadway on our property. it turned out that because its a large island (Tobin Island on Rosseau, if anyone is easily impressed, lol) the "roadway" he cut was legal because he is legally entitled to access his inland property from the water. of course, he was a total dick for doing it without consulting us, but my understanding is that it is a very grey area legally.

[nibbler]

Shitty deal.

Before formally consulting a lawyer, or hiring one, be aware that many lawyers are happy to tell you that you've got a rock solid case, that it should be an easy win etc, when in reality, they often see you as someone they can make some easy money off. Furthermore, there are only 3 lawyers practicing law in the entire county, all of whom also take turns as small claims court judges, and all of whom have many conflicts of interest by way of this being a county of only 5,000 people: i.e. everyone who grew up here pretty much knows everyone else...

That all being said, in my experience, these are important things to know:

1. Are there any right-of-ways granted to anybody for any purpose in your property deed? (very important)

2. Has your property been professionally surveyed? (without a survey you've got no legal grounds to stand on, even if buddy is cutting trees right next to your house!)

3. Do you have a copy of the survey and do you know where the markers (Iron Bars) are located?

With this ^ information, you can use a good GPS to roughly find your property lines. If you've got a survey and you know where the iron bars are, I'd be happy to bring my GPS over and help you define your shared property line in question.

Once the lines are clearly defined and thus where his construction crosses the line is as well, you should start shooting photos- lots of them- and keep a detailed dated journal about the discovery of his actions and steps you take to address the situation. I hear your pain and I feel it- but DO NOT cave into the vandal temptation, for that would quickly change your position in the eyes of the law from victim into shit disturber...

Your neighbor is likely not entitled to cut trees on your land, though in this neck of the woods, the rule of law is often trumped by how many generations of said good-ole-boy's family have lived here and who he actually knows... Therefore, patiently waiting for a call back from the municipality (from whom?) could take a long time...

Once you have defined the property lines, taken photos, and notes of your actions; that is the time to 'confront' your neighbor about it. Its possible by right of way that he is allowed to be clearing a road. Also possible that he's genuinely made a mistake, and that you can work a compromise/solution between the two of you. If he's unreasonable, then:

From a legal perspective, landowners in the Highlands cannot clear trees without a registered forestry plan obtained through the MNR, which could be the way to pursue this- as in, if he doesnt have a permit and he's cutting down lots of trees, he's pretty fucked, or even if he does have a plan, if it doesnt specifically detail this cutting of a road, when the MNR audits his plan- he's fucked. Furthermore- if he is doing any construction of a road NEAR your property line- onus is on him to have a survey done to clearly define that he is not violating designated setback restrictions. The MNR must have some sort of "register a complaint about a neighbor violating their Registered Forestry Plan" hotline or department.

From another perspective, once you've established beyond a shadow of doubt that your neighbor is cutting trees on your land, and speaking with him doesn't lead towards a solution, there's always the option of going public with the story. In that case, I know a person or two who work with the local media here who could help you out.

Good Luck!

[AD]

Step 1, regardless of any legal advice: Keep calm, ask him what he's doing and why, and tell him you disagree and why. Maybe it's a misunderstanding. You don't want to do a ton of legwork and let more trees fall while a simple, reasoned and calm conversation might clear the air.

[bONES]

thank you everyone

some very solid advice

I have calmed down (some) and will approach this with a level head when I see the guy.

The property is for sale again (NaturalMystic once walked it when it was for sale a few years ago) and I am assuming he is doing this to allow better access to the back ridge that has a wicked view.

The municipality of Highlands East called me back at a few minutes after 9am this morning. They start their day at 9, so I was pretty impressed at how quickly they returned my call.

I was told that because this is between 2 private properties there is nothing that they can do for me.

They wouldn't tell me if the guy has a permit or not and suggested that I call a surveyor and have them cut a swath out of the bush to mark the property lines.

I'm hoping that my neighbour will agree to pay half the cost and we can forgive and forget.

If not, I'll be looking for about a hundred tree huggers if anyone is interested :superman:

[Esau.]

or vandalize his machine.

I'm sure this was just written in a "heat of the moment" type thing, but save yourself the bigger issues and leave the equipment alone. It's possible he is renting it, no need to get the cops & the rental company involved.

Anyway, I hope you get it worked out Scott, good luck.

Tobin Island on Rosseau

Nice. We had a cottage on Three Mile for years (75-86) and my little brother and I used to canoe from there over to Rosseau to fish for pike.

[nibbler]

FYI:

Local surveyors charge between $1,000 and $1,500 a day to clear and define property lines, which roughly works out to about $3,000 per kilometer depending how thick the bush in question is...

[phishtaper]

i bet the bush is thick. 70s thick.

[Tungsten Gruvsten]

i bet the bush is thick. 70s thick.

...awesome like a hotdog.

[questcequecest?]

[bONES]

or vandalize his machine.

I'm sure this was just written in a "heat of the moment" type thing, but save yourself the bigger issues and leave the equipment alone. It's possible he is renting it, no need to get the cops & the rental company involved.

Anyway, I hope you get it worked out Scott, good luck.

everything in my original post was written in the heat of the moment

I'm no bully or vandalizer (is that a word)

I just wish we all respected one another and boundaries...I do.

[Weirdness]

Holy fucking shit, Phishtaper has a cottage???

[StoneMtn]

I can't "advise" you this way, but I can give you general information, based on what you've said, and direct you to find an appropriate lawyer...

Presuming you can show you are right (and most of what Nibbler says is pretty good advice, although the last time I tried to define property boundaries by way of GPS the Surveyor told me it is impossible, but perhaps technology has improved in 5 years) you need to retain a lawyer to commence an Application in Superior Court for an immediate, permanent injunction enjoining him from doing this. Then, if he continues, he is in contempt of Court, and that same lawyer can go back to court and have him fined (or theoretically imprisoned, but not in real life).

Once you have an Order by way of Injunction, too, the cops are more likely to help you on an immediate basis, too, at least to tell him to stop pending return to court.

Conflicts in small towns are a problem, and it sounds like Nibbler knows there are many conflicts up there. You may need to find a lawyer from somewhere else, but they need to go to the nearest Superior Court near Haliburton. (Issues over land need to be dealt with at the Court in that jurisdiction. You can't just go to any Superior Court location for the order. That is somewhat particular to land-situations.)

Bottom line is you need a civil-litigator, and ideally a pretty good one, although this is not the most complicated matter. Someone with experience in real-property issues, of course, would be ideal; to state the obvious.

I am usually leery about "going public" with any story, but perhaps that's just because I spend a lot of time defending people against defamation lawsuits.

*The above is for informational purposes only, and does not create a solicitor-client relationship. I am providing information based on facts as set out here, and this could change if any facts are somewhat different, or other facts come to play. This is not legal advice, rather it is a direction to contact a lawyer, retain that person, and get actual advice.

[phishtaper]

*The above is for informational purposes only, and does not create a solicitor-client relationship. I am providing information based on facts as set out here, and this could change if any facts are somewhat different, or other facts come to play. This is not legal advice, rather it is a direction to contact a lawyer, retain that person, and get actual advice.

no anal leakage? sudden blindness? or erections that last longer than 4 hours? [color:purple]man, your small print sucks.

[CyberHippie]

That's a total outrage bones! I have no idea what I'd do in a similar situation but I hope you are able to get it resolved.

Fucking people eh... Someone is poaching snapping turtles on our lake. Good times...

[nibbler]

...the last time I tried to define property boundaries by way of GPS the Surveyor told me it is impossible, but perhaps technology has improved in 5 years)

This is true. You can't use a standard GPS to do a legal survey.

You can use one to find the location of a property line with a +/- 9 foot accuracy once you knows the exact location of property corners or coordinates. For bONES' ordeal- GPS would help to know for certain if his neighbor was trespassing.

[snarfmaster C]

bones

how is this progressing?

remember when i went up there and tried marking off your boundaries?

your neighbours to the east had used magnetic north to define their brush "hedge", whereas i believe all surveys are to true north unless otherwise stated.

i assume you're talking about your new neighbours to the west.

regardless. the true vs. magnetic issue makes big difference. probably worth bringing in a surveyor - at least for the chunk south of the swamp...

love ya bones, hope this works out ok.