Michael Bryant

[Hartamophone]

Almost every cyclist I see on my bus/walk to work is breaking a traffic law - riding on the sidewalk, going through red lights, ignoring stop signs, going the wrong way down a one-way street. In the past two days I saw ONE cyclist walking her bike on the sidewalk.

The other day I almost got taken out by a cyclist on the sidewalk who nearly clipped me as I got off the back of the bus.

I really do think that, in general, drivers are more conscious of the risk they pose to pedestrians. Cyclists seem to have an "I'll do what I want" attitude which is really ugly and does nothing to further the cause of road safety.

Drivers might be conscious of the risk they pose to pedestrians, but far fewer of them are as mindful of the risk they pose to cyclists. I think cyclists pass off their frustration with cars onto pedestrians, which creates a vicious...er...cycle. Bikers get run off the road by cars all the time, and often end up with a bad attitude on the sidewalk - where they pose a threat to pedestrians - because it is unsafe for them on the road.

As an avid cyclist who knows that many other cyclists have a horrible and dangerous attitude, I firmly believe that the problem starts with ignorant drivers. (And for the record, I also drive a car). There needs to be more understanding on both sides, but I think it should start with the bigger and more dangerous vehicles.

[ersh]

Putting the tragedy of the death aside for a second (though not to belittle it in any way)' date=' it will be too bad if it turns out that this cyclist was a drunk hothead who liked to stir things up. That will only add fuel to the fire for ignorant drivers who think that all cyclists are dangerous nuisances who should not be on the road.[/quote']

Aren't they though? I see countless traffic violations made by cyclists every day on my commute to work. The informed cyclist that actually walks his or her bike on the sidewalk is in the vast minority, and I applaud them.

And I'm saying this as a pedestrian. At least I can reasonably predict the behaviour of an automobile and I've never seen one driving on the sidewalk. It's the cyclists that scare me.

Countless violations made by cyclists' date=' sure. But you would also see countless violations made by drivers if you were looking for them: speeding, illegal lane changes, turning without looking for bikes, etc. Drivers love to point out the flaws in the way cyclists ride, but let he who is without sin cast the first stone.[/quote']

Almost every cyclist I see on my bus/walk to work is breaking a traffic law - riding on the sidewalk, going through red lights, ignoring stop signs, going the wrong way down a one-way street. In the past two days I saw ONE cyclist walking her bike on the sidewalk.

The other day I almost got taken out by a cyclist on the sidewalk who nearly clipped me as I got off the back of the bus.

I really do think that, in general, drivers are more conscious of the risk they pose to pedestrians. Cyclists seem to have an "I'll do what I want" attitude which is really ugly and does nothing to further the cause of road safety.

Couldn't agree more with Ollie. Cyclists are unfortunately unpredictable in Toronto. The rules of the road are there so that you can anticipate what other drivers are doing. If you don't obey those rules, then I have no idea what you're gonna do, thus making you very dangerous! It's an issue that really angers me.

Since moving to Totonto 8 years ago, one of the things that's changed in my driving is watching for cyclists. I worked catering for 3 years, which had me driving on the Toronto streets everyday all day. In the summer, they're my number one road hazard. Passing on the inside of a car turning right out of a turning lane was the first thing I learned to watch out for.

Maybe greater law enforcement for cyclists is what needs to happen... or even a licencing system for street travel or something, so you at least have to be aware of the laws before you're aloowed on the streets. Anything to keep them safer. I think the cyclists in the city have gotten the way they have because they can get away with it. Drivers obey the laws because if they don't, there's a real good chance you'll get a ticket or get in an accident.

When's the last time you deliberately ran a stop sign or traffic light in your car? :susel:

[Freak By Night]

As a commuting cyclist, when I do something "unpredictable" like stopping at a stop sign, it really confuses the car drivers.

Just this morning I stopped at a four way stop. There was a car already stopped there to my left. Well, I tell ya, this lady didn't know weather to shit or go blind! She waved me through, rather angrily I might add, even though she had the right of way.

[ollie]

Drivers might be conscious of the risk they pose to pedestrians, but far fewer of them are as mindful of the risk they pose to cyclists. I think cyclists pass off their frustration with cars onto pedestrians, which creates a vicious...er...cycle. Bikers get run off the road by cars all the time, and often end up with a bad attitude on the sidewalk - where they pose a threat to pedestrians - because it is unsafe for them on the road.

Asshole behaviour is asshole behaviour. I'm not going to cut a cyclist some slack just because he or she might have been angered by a driver. Is that really what you're asking?

[Hartamophone]

Asshole behaviour is asshole behaviour. I'm not going to cut a cyclist some slack just because he or she might have been angered by a driver. Is that really what you're asking?

I'm not asking you to cut some slack, nor am I making excuses for the excessively reckless cyclists. I'm merely suggesting we think about where the behaviour might originate from. If drivers (in general) were more mindful of cyclists in general, then cyclists (in general) wouldn't be up on the sidewalk.

And people deliberately run reds and stop signs in their cars all the time, by the way.

[ollie]

And people deliberately run reds and stop signs in their cars all the time, by the way.

Not with anywhere near the same frequency though.

[Velvet]

The reality of the situation is that cyclists don't have their own place. The prevailing view of motorists is that roads are for cars and the prevailing view of pedestrians is that sidewalks are for walking. I can't tell you how many times I've been riding down Colonel By and someone yells at me to get off the road and onto the bike path.

Well, it's not a bike path, it's a recreational path, with a speed limit of 20km/h, and I get yelled at to slow down when I'm on it. There are a myriad of areas in Ottawa where a dedicated bike lane just magically appears in the middle of three lanes of traffic. It's a start, but a dangerous one.

One of my common turns is going left off of Pretoria Bridge and onto Colonel By. Well friends, if you've never tried it I dare you. If there's any traffic at all, utilising my right of way is a death sentance, so I have to cross to the corner, get on the sidewalk and wait for the light to change, like a pedestrian. So, here's one of a thousand cases where it's extremely dangerous to play by the rules, and by playing it safe I'm fostering more bad driving habits. What should I do in this situation?

It's a chicken or egg thing. Bad cycling habits come from uneducated drivers, and uneducated drivers create bad cycling habits.

Uneducated drivers, you might be saying?

"Passing on the inside of a car turning right out of a turning lane was the first thing I learned to watch out for."

In this case the cyclist is doing the correct thing, and the onus is on the automobile to always check over their right shoulder and stop for oncoming cyclists.

On my cycling trip through Europe I was absolutely amazed at how cars ALWAYS deferred to cyclists and how cyclists ALWAYS followed the rules. It didn't hurt that there were completely distinct paths for pedestrians and cyclists, and every single road had a dedicated bike lane. In the case 'ersh mentioned, in Denmark if you turn right and nail a cyclist, apparently the fine is enormous.

[Hartamophone]

On my cycling trip through Europe I was absolutely amazed at how cars ALWAYS deferred to cyclists and how cyclists ALWAYS followed the rules. It didn't hurt that there were completely distinct paths for pedestrians and cyclists, and every single road had a dedicated bike lane. In the case 'ersh mentioned, in Denmark if you turn right and nail a cyclist, apparently the fine is enormous.

My experiences in Victoria were very similar. Motorists and cyclists have largely learned to live with each other there, and as a result you see a lot less anger and a lot more general compliance with the rules of the road from all sides.

[ollie]

Yeah, I understand there are times when following the rules of the road is too dangerous for a cyclist. And I certainly don't get bothered by kids or seniors biking on the sidewalk. It's the cyclists who behave with the kind of reckless abandon that I very rarely see from drivers that bug me. And there are a lot of them.

[AD]

oops - if you saw what i just erased, i mistook the signs saying you can't ride on the sidewalk as saying you can't ride on the bridge.

Edited September 4, 2009 by Guest
getting my facts straight

[nibbler]

Sure, generally speaking a former Attorney General is probably an unlikely flight risk, but Im stunned that here we have a violent conflict situation that ended in the death of a citizen in clearly dubious circumstances- a potentially serious crime committed and potential heavy charges pending; and buddy walks out of jail WITHOUT A BAIL HEARING?- fresh change of clothes for the cameras too! Let me guess, his good word will be his own star witness?

Yesterday, two friends of mine who cycle to work on Toronto's busy streets were stopped by cops in roadside bike safety checks. I drove past one myself at Broadview and Danforth but the cops werent stopping cars- only bikes.

Thats more spin than just a good PR company can deliver. Buddy's got high friends in places-

[AD]

i erased / amended that post a few minutes after i wrote it.

oops - if you saw what i just erased, i mistook the signs saying you can't ride on the sidewalk as saying you can't ride on the bridge.

[bouche]

A couple of times on scott street, I've found myself having to carefully negotiate around a cyclist taking up lots of roadspace despite the bike path 10 feet to their right. I really don't want a cyclist to wipe out in front of a car when they could have been riding safe.

My biggest pet peeve is when cyclists ignore stop signs and red lights. I came up to a 4-way stop last week, and as it was my turn to move forward after my complete stop, I saw a cyclist appoaching from the left, full speed, and I saw her just look both ways for any cars coming across the intersection and she just continued through with her momentum. Of course I knew this was going to happen, but that was a recipe for disaster with a driver who wouldn't even think that the cyclist would probably continue a full speed. This happens far too often.

[Velvet]

A couple of times on scott street, I've found myself having to carefully negotiate around a cyclist taking up lots of roadspace despite the bike path 10 feet to their right. I really don't want a cyclist to wipe out in front of a car when they could have been riding safe.

Again, the cyclists are riding where they are supposed to ride. The reason it's not safe is because drivers think they aren't supposed to be there (and because the side of the road is where most of the potholes are, and if the city expects that cyclists treat the side of the road as their space in lieu of a proper cycling lane then the city should prioritise fixing those potholes).

[Velvet]

Just got in from a lovely bike ride on the recreational paths along the canal and Ottawa River. On the way I noticed two spots where it is entirely vague as to whether I was on sidewalk or recreational path (Main Street and Colonel By, and in front of the former Congress Centre).

[jon.]

a douche bag is a douchebag on two wheels or four.

i've been a bike commuter in the city for 20 years...i am amazed by the number of self righteous asshole bike riders who feel it their duty to slap the evil car drivers on the wrist no matter where fault lies. just today i saw a biker cussing out a ttc bus because it came to close to him...really, dude get over it, its a bus and last time i checked bus vs. bike = bus wins every time.

And you can be sure that the most obnoxious biker is NEVER wearing a helmet - really smart stuff. i know you look way cooler without one, and you can totally show off your radical hairdo, that will probably fall to the bottom of the priority list when you are figuring out how to work your brand new sip and puff wheelchair.

the only truth here is that there are many stupid people in this world...if you grab the side of a moving car you don't deserve to die...but you might. i think the darwinian reference earlier pretty much sums it up.

[MoMack]

Question Hatamaphone- are you saying that when I'm in the right hand lane (in a car), waiting to turn right, with my blinker on, and multiple cars are stopped behind me, a bike is right to come up on the right of them all to proceed forward?

I really don't know, not trying to be a dick. But I always thought cars were to obey the same rules of the road as cars (other then the signals etc. of course). Therefore, in that situation or any, the bike should wait behind the row of cars, just like the cars are doing.

Am I wrong???

[Velvet]

Question Hatamaphone- are you saying that when I'm in the right hand lane (in a car), waiting to turn right, with my blinker on, and multiple cars are stopped behind me, a bike is right to come up on the right of them all to proceed forward?

I really don't know, not trying to be a dick. But I always thought cars were to obey the same rules of the road as cars (other then the signals etc. of course). Therefore, in that situation or any, the bike should wait behind the row of cars, just like the cars are doing.

Am I wrong???

I think you're asking me as I brought that up in reference to 'ersh's post, and yeah, that's what I'm saying, and I base this solely on the standard rules in Europe. If you're are turning right in a car you must check to see no cyclists will be coming up on your right intending to go straight. If there is a cyclist coming, they have the right of way (as I mentioned earlier, if you turn right and hit a cyclist intending to go straight the fines are very heavy). Much like if you are at an intersection trying to turn left, you must defer to traffic coming the other way that have the intention of going straight.

I do agree though that cars are to obey the same rules on the road as cars.

[Kanada Kev]

[color:purple]you people want drivers to do more?! How the hell are you supposed to do that with your Blackberry in one hand, half-caff-low-fat-overpriced-cup-o-coffee in the other, while trying to eat and punch in new coordinates in your GPS?????

Asking a bit much, no?

Good luck getting some motorists (and just about all cyclists) to utilize turn signals. And never assume that just because a turn signal is operating, that the driver is actually going to follow it

While we're on it, there are a LOT of dumbass pedestrians out there. In the txt messaging crackberry age half the people out there are looking at the ground when they step out at intersections. No sympathy. Stop moving while doing that shit. Also, watch people with strollers .... they get pushed out into traffic before the person who is pushing them and txt messaging at the same time ...ugh.

[Booche]

If you're are turning right in a car you must check to see no cyclists will be coming up on your right intending to go straight.

Well, that's just fucking stupid in my world. Either the bike should be forced to wait until the car turns or the bike should go to the left of the car. The bike shouldnt automatically get the right of way.

Obviously drivers should be forced to look to see if a bike is about to plow into them or if they are going to plow into a bike but common sense should be applied in this scenario.

[Davey Boy 2.0]

my monitor is giving off excessive heat with all the roadrage going on here today

[Velvet]

But it makes sense to wait for vehicles going straight when you're turning left?

[MoMack]

If you're are turning right in a car you must check to see no cyclists will be coming up on your right intending to go straight.

Well' date=' that's just fucking stupid in my world. Either the bike should be forced to wait until the car turns or the bike should go to the left of the car. The bike shouldnt automatically get the right of way.

Obviously drivers should be forced to look to see if a bike is about to plow into them or if they are going to plow into a bike but common sense should be applied in this scenario.[/quote']

And I'd have to guess that in Canada the bike doesn't get the right of way in that situation. I would think they'd be considered a vehicle and have to obey the rules of the road which would mean waiting behind the back cars.

Could be wrong - but I've hit my quota for the year on that, so I doubt it.

[Booche]

Sure, unless you want to get hit.

I would think they'd be considered a vehicle and have to obey the rules of the road which would mean waiting behind the back cars.

Exactly, just because they can squeeze ahead doesnt mean they get to go first.

[Velvet]

What I should have posted is this:

If you are going straight you shouldn't have to yield, no matter what your mode of transportation. If someone is trying to turn in either direction, they must make sure someone isn't trying to go straight, be it someone driving in their own lane in the other direction, a pedestrian crossing the street, or a cyclist travelling in the same direction as you (who is also in their own lane - the side of the road being the bike lane).