Possession charge.....help!

[eirual]

Hey guys

Charge: Possession of a controlled substance, under 30 grams (marijuana: 3 joints).

On our way back from the west cost, my husband and I got pulled over in our '73 Westfalia just east of Marathon, ON (out between sault ste. marie and Thunder Bay). They asked him to step out of the vehicle and come around back, he obliged. There he was told that he could do this the easy way or the hard way- he could either give him all the pot that he had, or he could bring in the dog team and search the entire vehicle that we'd been living in for the past month (not much of an ultimatum!). With it being so late at night, and not wanting to make things harder than they had to be, as well as neither of us being all that farmilliar with the law, he fessed up to haveing a few joints in the van. The officer then came to me in the front seat and said that Shawn (my husband) had told him what we had and where it was, so i gave it to him. Shawn got cuffed and we were both read our rights and put in the cruiser. They asked if that was all that we had or if he 'had to go through all that crap'. They proceeded to search through all of the van and didn't find any more pot, but still layed charges on shawn (he had said that it was his so that we both didn't end up with a record.) When shawn had originally asked why they had pulled us over he claimed that he needed no reason and that they were doing random searches- and that one tail light apppeared to be a little dimmer than the other. After the charges had been laid and the court-date set, shawn asked, 'so why'd you really pull me over'...to which he replied 'it's been a slow night, and i just finished pulling that other guy over when you went by, and i have a ride-along'....so we got screwed for the entertainment of a ride-along.

oh ya...Unless we pead guilty and accept the charge, we have to return to Marathon (a solid 12-15hr drive)in Novemeber to argue it.

Yes, we had the pot, but i'm sure it was by no means a legal search...So, if anyone's got any ins, any advice, or any ideas let us know!

thanks

~laurie (:

[Sunshine]

sorry to hear that this happened to you! I wish I could offer advice!

Positive vibes sent your way!

[zero]

Fight it! You will really regret not fighting it. Seriously he won't be able to get into the states for years and it will be with you for years- I know from personal and very similar experience. This kind of situation is precisely why they are considering decriminilization- the disparity of sentencing and community policing activities from region to region. You basically nailed it the guy was training some yigget and decided to give you a whirl to show the kids what it's like to slap your cock on someone's forehead. Please consider fighting it- sounds like there was no grounds for being pulled over to begin with moreover it wasn't too long ago the association of police chiefs were reconsidering all prosecutions and certainly not for such a petty beef. What fu©king dicks cops can be fu©king with people's whole lives over a stupid time filling routine.

[StoneMtn]

It sounds to me as though there was at least one, if not several, violations of your Charter rights. You are correct, however, that regardless of whether you have a lawyer you will almost certainly need to appear in Court to contest the charge.

I am not a criminal defence lawyer, merely a lowly civil litigator, so I cannot swear that there were Charter violations in your case, however, I am quite certain. I suggest you contact one of the top criminal defence lawyers in the country who specializes in marijuana charges. His name is John Conroy and you can reach him via his website www.johnconroy.com . He practices here in BC, but he also handles matters across the country for anyone who is willing to pay the fee for him to do so. I don't recommend that you retain him in this case, as it would be very expensive, however he would be able to recommend the best hired gun in or around Marathon, ON to deal with this for you.

Good luck with it.

[Esau]

I have had this happen to me in the past(89 & 93) but thankfully I wasn't far from home,although I didn't contest it anyway and took the fine.But I have had my share of the court room this year and sat through many cases along this lines awaiting my turn.

Sadly,I dont think theres much you can do about it unless you want to spend money on a lawyer,I'm sure he/she could come up with a defense then head back to Marathon to contest it,in which it would sorta be their word against yours depending on what they wrote the reason was for pulling you over in their report.And knowing that many folks would rather not drive that far over such a small amount,they unfortunatley usually win,but sadly it goes on your record and can obviously cause numerous issues for the person.For me it has restricted the amount of places I can work in now and I work industrial construction.

I wish I could give you some positive words,but in my expirence this sorta sh!t is an easy win for them,so it can be hard to contest.Sorry.

Best of luck,

Greg

[dancingbear]

sorry,

that sucks.

my friends had a similar experience in saskatchewan...they managed to get the case moved to ontario. one went to court in london (charged with 0.5 grams) and got a record!!! the other (charged with 3.0 grams) went to court in toronto and he got off with some community service and no record. so i say get a lawyer and try to move it to a 'bigger' city court were small amounts are usually not seen by judges anyway.

good luck.

legalize it.

[secondtube]

"he got off with some community service and no record"

Still not allowed in the states, as thats what i got, community service and 'no record'.

No record only means to possible job employers....not to the U.S. border.

You BETTER get it THROWN out (no conditional discharges). Literally. No other options. If its NOT thrown out, you are not going to the states w/out an I192 waiver.

Trust me. This is a field i've studied extensively (for all the wrong reasons)

[StoneMtn]

As far as getting community service without a record, that may be true to a degree; but not entirely. It sounds as though this person was probably given a conditional discharge. This means that when that person performed that community service the conditions for the discharge were met, and the charges were dropped. However, that would leave that person with a record of the conditional discharge itself. Those, however, are expunged after seven years; to my knowledge. The other possibility, however, is that this person was given a "diversionary remedy", meaning that the matter was dealt with informally via counsel and the person was allowed to get no record in exchange for doing something. I doubt that is what occurred in the case of the community service, however, as diversions usually involve some form of rehab.

You do need a lawyer, and you should get one ASAP. Unless you can prove a Charter violation and this goes to trial there will be a conviction. If that is the case, then you can only address the issue of sentencing, based on your husband being a good guy. You don't want it to get to that stage. Get a lawyer and see if that lawyer can strike a plea bargain with the Crown for a diversionary remedy such that you don't have a record or even a record of having no record, as is the case with a conditional discharge.

[hamilton]

There is no such thing as a "random search" - you have clearly had your rights violated. (Furthermore, it wasn't really random - had you been driving a Lexus, there's no way that he would have pulled you over and demanded your weed). Get a lawyer!

[eirual]

Thankyou for all your feedback....I think it's definitely worth getting a lawyer and fighting it....it just sucks it's so far away.

[StoneMtn]

For what it's worth, I can tell you that in BC you would not even have been charged. It is a different system here, though, and the police do not have the authority to "charge" you; which makes perfect sense as they are not schooled in "the Law", rather in enforcement. Unlike Ontario, here the cops can "recommend charges" to Crown Counsel, who then decides to pursue the charges or not. (In Ontario, the police can and do charge you themselves.) As it happens, the Department of Justice has a policy against prosecuting "simple possession" of marijuana in BC, unless there are other charges involved as well; such as guns, harder drugs, violence... so if you were here, the cops would have recommended that charges be brought, and the Crown would have tossed the case out. (Practically speaking, the police here rarely do recommend charges in your type of case, as they are aware that it will not be pursued.)

Alas, you are in Ontario, and the DOJ does not have that policy in your province...

Call John Conroy and get a referral from him for an Ontario lawyer. Seriously.

[paisley]

definately talk to a lawyer, ask around for people who've had something similar and beat it and ask advice from their lawyer, its free to ask for opinions

best of luck, and 7 years of bad luck upon that prick of a cop... 3 joints for christsakes, going down the road hurting no-one... if you had've crossed the road to get to his cruiser to hand the weed to him he probably would've also charged you with jaywalking

getting away with stopping cars for no reason is one step away from kicking in doors for no reason... fight it for sure, even if only to learn more about the law and your rights

[SaggyBalls]

well dude i think there are a couple of issues...since there's a charge for failing to have insurance or proper papers, the cops have a right to do spot checks. it's the law and i don't disagree with that. I do disagree with the stepping out of the vehicle. Was there more to the story, or was there a whiff or pot smoke coming from the van?

if there wasn't any and there was no reason to search the van (should've been asked earlier than teh end of the ordeal) then i'm sad to say it but you guys are pretty stupid for not standing up for your rights at the time. If there's no reason to search the van then they don't have the right to and YOU should've been asking HIM for his name, badge number, commanding officer, and precinct(canadian lingo please?)

I think you should fight it. it's not worth the hassle just because you're pushovers.

just remember - hippy does not mean wimpy.

[ggrtrhhrtgg]

I don't have any advice just good wishes, the best of luck with this, hopefully it works out.

[Esau]

if there wasn't any and there was no reason to search the van (should've been asked earlier than teh end of the ordeal) then i'm sad to say it but you guys are pretty stupid for not standing up for your rights at the time. If there's no reason to search the van then they don't have the right to and YOU should've been asking HIM for his name, badge number, commanding officer, and precinct(canadian lingo please?)

First,I see no need to call people stupid over this.

Unfortunatley Rob, through personal expirence in court and on the street,I know when this happens if you refuse them the search it can be considered "probable cause" in turn giving them every legal right at the moment to search or even arrest you until they get a warrant or are allowed to search,since their defense (be it right or wrong) is if you have nothing to hide then it shouldn't be a problem.

After which,be them right or wrong you can file charges,complaints,fight it in court etc,but not until after you have spent some time in holding,especially in northern towns.Its sad but true.

I know this through it happening to me (1989) and having charges filed against the police,which I lost in court anyway costing me thousands only to get a fine anyway for the herb I had.

Now,I'm in no way saying to take it without a fight,just that there isn't much you can do without forking out for a lawyer and making the 12-15 hour trek there for court.(As mentioned in my first post)

If you'd like to borrow my copy of the 2002 Canadain Criminal Code book Rob (sorry its not up to date...),I'd be more then happy to let you read it.

Again Laurie,I hope it works out for your husband.Its a reall sh!tty way to have your life screwed up for awhile.Definatley talk with a lawyer and see what recourse he has in fighting this.

[hamilton]

well dude i think there are a couple of issues...since there's a charge for failing to have insurance or proper papers, the cops have a right to do spot checks. it's the law and i don't disagree with that.

No, they don't. Get a clue, Beats - have you ever heard of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms? Check out sections 8 & 9:

8. Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure.

9. Everyone has the right not to be arbitrarily detained or imprisoned.

Being pulled over for driving a Westphalia is arbitrary detention. Spot checks for insurance are not allowed - it's like doing spot checks on your person to see if you're carrying weed, just because you are walking down the street - or entering your home just to see if you're doing something illegal Even RIDE programs, which ultimately serve a much greater good, had to be fought all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada in order to be declared legal - and I think everyone can agree that drunk driving is a lot more of a menace to society than driving without insurance.

Nice to see that you think we should live in a police state.

[Phred]

I happen to know a cop and this turns out to be a common technique. Pull over someone that you suspect to posses something illegal, and get them to do something that allows for the car to be searched... Because you showed him your pot he now has access to search your car. I believe that if you didn't he would not have legally been allowed to search.

Pretty shady and crappy practise if you ask me. a$$hole.

I am sorry that this happened

[Phred]

>if there wasn't any and there was no reason to search the >van (should've been asked earlier than teh end of the >ordeal) then i'm sad to say it but you guys are pretty >stupid for not standing up for your rights at the time. If >there's no reason to search the van then they don't have >the right to and YOU should've been asking HIM for his >name, badge number, commanding officer, and precinct

>(canadian lingo please?)

There was reason - the pot. They were hoping for an even bigger score I imagine. You guys were not stupid. Manipulated yes, but not stupid.

[Phred]

>if there wasn't any and there was no reason to search the >van (should've been asked earlier than teh end of the >ordeal) then i'm sad to say it but you guys are pretty >stupid for not standing up for your rights at the time. If >there's no reason to search the van then they don't have >the right to and YOU should've been asking HIM for his >name, badge number, commanding officer, and precinct

>(canadian lingo please?)

There was reason - the pot. They were hoping for an even bigger score I imagine. You guys were not stupid. Manipulated yes, but not stupid.

[paisley]

another reason to fight it in court

in the time you search for a lawyer, (and ask for up to three 3 to 4 week extensions while you try to find one you feel can properly represent you, which is your legal right) then once you find one and he sets a court date for 6 months down the road when the next available court date is... the law may have well have changed, as its being discussed in Ottawa now... I have a feeling that if you have no serious priors your 3 joints is going to get laughed out of court anyways

make sure you find a reputable lawyer who doesn't need the business, I'm sure you have a strong case... also contact "duty counsel" at the court you're supposed to appear at and ask them some questions about whether or not you have to appear or if they can represent you... they're the lawyers in the courtroom who represent people until they have a lawyer of their own

(guess who has court in January :

[Esau]

another reason to fight it in court

in the time you search for a lawyer, (and ask for up to three 3 to 4 week extensions while you try to find one you feel can properly represent you, which is your legal right) then once you find one and he sets a court date for 6 months down the road when the next available court date is... the law may have well have changed,as its being discussed in Ottawa now... I have a feeling that if you have no serious priors your 3 joints is going to get laughed out of court anyways

And sadly,you get all the stress of wondering and worrying about what is going to happen,I can atest to that and its not a good feeling to have in you for 6 months (or more as in my case).Since we have all seen this law flip flop too many times to put faith in that,at least how I see it.

I'd say get it out of the way as quickly as you can,no need to carry that weight around,trust me worrying about that sh!t during the dark winters until spring really does no one any good, mentally.

I hope it gets thrown out too,it would in Hamilton or Toronto,but sadly not always in smaller communities and with non residents.

I don't mean to be negative but this is the reality of the bullshit laws and games the law plays at time and this sh!t gets my blood boiling.

[eirual]

Hey

Have i mentionned how awesome you guys are?

Thankyou for all your input, We're looking into talking to a lawyer but it's proving to be quite dificult if you can't fork out loads of cash. Turns out legal aid's only available if they're seeking jail time. We'll hopefully know by wednesday what exactly we can do.

Thanks

~laurie (:

[bouche]

I've been following this thread in utter shock. It's so depressing to see that you can get screwed over for doing absolutely nothing in this country. good people should not be subjected to the 'creative' use of the law by enforcment.

I hope you've documented all of cop's comments you mentioned, and everything that happened.

I've never been involved with lawyers or anythign like this, so I am wondering, if you take a lawyer and win the case...who then pays for the laywer? Do you sue the cops for the lawyer fees?

[StoneMtn]

No. You cover your own costs. Cost awards are only made in civil actions.

That being said, in extraordinary cases, you can later commence a civil action and sue the police, government, Queen, etc. for "malicious prosecution", however, that is an extremely difficult standard to meet. (On the upside, if you win that action, you are more likely to get an order in your favour for costs that you had to incur for that lawsuit, but that award would only cover a small portion, if any, of those costs. How's that for irony?)

[snarfmaster C]

that is something.

a friend of mine had the same trick pulled by border guards coming into canada - 'since pot's basically legal in canada just hand us over what you've got and we won't have to search your vehicle....' he even made up a story about how much was within the 'legal' limits to turn over to him. my friend didn't buy it (i don't think he had any anyway - he was in a hippie-mobile, so he knew to have it clean) so the guards took their time searching for the sake of hassle really.

my cousin works as a border official and i asked him about it later - they're absolutely NOT supposed to take that approach. the story the guard made up was all manipulative lies.

the guard that tried that was a sneaky malicious and mean little bugger. which, along with other observations these past few days, makes me wonder about the capacity and quality of life in hell. why are so many opting for the dark afterlife? is it better than we've been lead to believe?

hopefully lots of people will learn from your experience eirual, i'm sorry you're having to deal with such a huge amount of bullshit. best of luck to you.