Ban 50 Cent, says Toronto MP

[Deeps]

I'll second it [color:purple]and then in an amazing twist I'll expose his Marijuana useage to the same editor.

Seriously though...well put MarcO....I still think we need to start using the proceeds from this maniacal music and violence hungry media machine to promote general positivity in the community though. Too much bad going out not enough good on the ears of the babies.

Think of the babies wweeeehhh the baaaaabies, what of the babies?

[Velvet]

Look what the jungle beat of rock and roll did to us all.

Hmm...could this be a racial thing?

[ollie]

But even she doesn’t get it. There just seems to be something so alien – and offensive - to people about hip-hop and rap music. Even around here we see it often referred to as inferior, a musical style devoid of art and substance, which is entirely ignorant. This is folk music, people.

I wonder if there would have been an uproar if a band like Living Color had recorded a song called "White Sugar".

[Asparagus]

The states dont let thousands of Canadians in their country cause of stuff as simple as Marijuana possession' date=' why should we let this American Criminal in our country? [/quote']

This would be an important question.

It is an important question. Here are two more:

Do you think it is right for the United States to deny Canadians citizens entry based on things like marijuana possession?

Should we, as a nation, retaliate against individual Americans for the actions of their government?

Anyways, on to the violence.

Think about all of the songs that any of you listen to, and there are alot of them. Think about the lyrics. How many of those songs tell stories of people being shot down in cold blood or stealing someone's wife? There was violence in society before gangster rap, and people sang about it. There will be violence in society after ganster rap, and people will sing about. I'm starting to think that Velvet may be right. When white people talk of lying, cheating, stealing, or killing, it doesn't seem to be a big deal.

Hell, maybe it has nothing to do with race, maybe it's because he happens to be making a lot money talking about the violence.

You may not like what he is singing about, but I guarantee that someday someone somewhere won't like something that you like, and will try to ban it. Why try to set a precedent?

In all honesty, I am appalled and offended that some of you think you should be able to make decisions for me. If I don't want to see him, I won't pay the price of admission.

My nickel.

[Dr. J]

Great post Marco. Not many posts stop me in my tracks or make me think like that one did.

Although I'm not a fan of 50 Cent or his music (nothing personal...nothing racial...just a matter of taste), as I stated in the previous thread, I am opposed to banning him or his music or his movies.

Folks have to decide for themselves.

There just seems to be something so alien – and offensive - to people about hip-hop and rap music. Even around here we see it often referred to as inferior, a musical style devoid of art and substance, which is entirely ignorant. This is folk music, people.

17th Century English ballads are dripping with blood, murder ballads both grotesque and gratuitous. Slave-era songs tell us of men without names left to toil like dogs until they die, lucky to receive even a modest grave. The mining songs of the 1800s reflect the despair and misery of working to die under the earth, leaving the bodies behind to press on. And now this musical lineage extends to reflect the realities of a 20th century commercial society awash in guns, racism, hopelessness – an American dream shattered by greed and fear.

I'm not sure about placing "gangsta rap" in the lineage of traditional folk - protest music.

It always seemed to me when listening to folk music that there was an undercurrent of hope...a voice that seemed to say things don't have to be this way...things can be different. The message (implied or otherwise) to the listener, no matter how grim or gruesome the reality, somehow seemed to be...is that the way you want your world or do you want to make a difference (even if it takes a revolution)?

I don't get that sense from gangsta rap (and yes maybe I haven't listened enough). In fact, I get the opposite. I get the message (predominantly male oriented) that hey this is the way things are...you can't do a fuckin' thing about it...so grab yourself a 'ho and a gun cuz it's every man for himself. It's very much a message of defeat and it's that kind of thinking, not the violence, that i find scary.

But then again maybe I've missed the message completely.

[Asparagus]

I should of just quoted MarcO. That's perfect.

[Dr. J]

I should of just quoted MarcO. That's perfect.

Sorry A. Didn't mean to jump "back over" the very valid points that you (and Velvet & others) have made. Sometimes it just takes me awhile to get my ass in gear. You raise some interesting points and thought provoking questions. I would hope that the anti-50 sentiment has nothing to do with race or the fact that he's making a lot of money. I suppose, like Deeps, I would hope that some of that money is being used to help those he sings about...or whatever.

Maybe i'm just hung up on this, but I always felt the folksinger had great respect for those about whom they sang no matter how desperate their situation. Gangsta rap seems to say to them...you're losers and you'll always be losers...so take what you can while you can. I dunno. Maybe I'm just missing it. I must confess to not being well versed in the genre.

[Asparagus]

I should of just quoted MarcO. That's perfect.

Sorry A. Didn't mean to jump "back over" the very valid points that you (and Velvet & others) have made. Sometimes it just takes me awhile to get my ass in gear. You raise some interesting points and thought provoking questions. I would hope that the anti-50 sentiment has nothing to do with race or the fact that he's making a lot of money. I suppose' date=' like Deeps, I would hope that some of that money is being used to help those he sings about...or whatever. [/quote']

No apologies necessary. I really wasn't looking for one. I wrote that because I think that MarcO wrote most of what I had intended to write, just more eloquently.

[TimmyB]

Dan McTeague should be ashamed of himself.

As if the glorification of violence and the mistreatment of women didn’t exist before 50 Cent announced his tour dates. As if a single night of entertainment is going to leave the streets of Canada littered in the blood of gang warfare.

Make no mistake about it, this is grandstanding, politically motivated and designed to put him on the “right†side of things once we plunge ourselves into another election this week. At least Valerie Smith had a social motivation.

But even she doesn’t get it. There just seems to be something so alien – and offensive - to people about hip-hop and rap music. Even around here we see it often referred to as inferior, a musical style devoid of art and substance, which is entirely ignorant. This is folk music, people.

17th Century English ballads are dripping with blood, murder ballads both grotesque and gratuitous. Slave-era songs tell us of men without names left to toil like dogs until they die, lucky to receive even a modest grave. The mining songs of the 1800s reflect the despair and misery of working to die under the earth, leaving the bodies behind to press on. And now this musical lineage extends to reflect the realities of a 20th century commercial society awash in guns, racism, hopelessness – an American dream shattered by greed and fear.

But for people like McTeague and Smith, these realities seem too hot to handle for our precious Canadian sensibilities. No, let’s close our borders to representations of these things in the hopes that somehow, by some miracle, the streets of Toronto and Vancouver and Halifax will all magically divest themselves of gangs, guns and drugs. Nonsense.

If these people would actually sit and think about what hip-hop music and specifically “gangsta†rap is, they may find themselves focusing more on the roots of the problems rather than the (largely crass) expressions of them.

I wonder what Dan McTeague may think if he had ever attended a Rolling Stones show. There’s Keith Richards, a walking addiction with several arrests under his name standing alongside Mick Jagger, slamming their way through their ode to serial rapists (“Midnight Ramblerâ€) or a little tune or two about keeping your bitch in line (“Under My Thumbâ€). Maybe they’ll tickle his rock and roll funny bone with “Sister Morphineâ€. And I hope as Valerie Smith kicks back in the evening with the Dixie Chicks classic “Earl Had To Die†she considers firing off a letter to whatever opportunistic government agency will listen to her about how it glorifies violence and is therefore dangerous in the hands of our zombie-like children.

But somehow I don’t think she will do that.

So let’s stop 50 Cent at the border in some sort of sad pathetic principled stand that we’re not going to take this “entertainmentâ€- we are above that. And while McTeague parps on about that, today I will await the news of what did or not happen at Delta High School here in Hamilton, where an early morning phone call warned of “something violent†going down there today, everyone on edge after a machete attack at another Hamilton high school last week. I blame 50 Cent. There that’s better, so easy. Have a nice day.

MarcO,

Have I told you how much I love you lately?

Reading the above post, makes me want, no need to say it to you again and again.

I love you Marc. This was the post of the year IMHO

Tim

[timouse]

Dan McTeague should be ashamed of himself.

As if the glorification of violence and the mistreatment of women didn’t exist before 50 Cent announced his tour dates. As if a single night of entertainment is going to leave the streets of Canada littered in the blood of gang warfare.

So let’s stop 50 Cent at the border in some sort of sad pathetic principled stand that we’re not going to take this “entertainmentâ€- we are above that. And while McTeague parps on about that' date=' today I will await the news of what did or not happen at Delta High School here in Hamilton, where an early morning phone call warned of “something violent†going down there today, everyone on edge after a machete attack at another Hamilton high school last week. I blame 50 Cent. There that’s better, so easy. Have a nice day.

[/quote']

MarcO,

Have I told you how much I love you lately?

Reading the above post, makes me want, no need to say it to you again and again.

I love you Marc. This was the post of the year IMHO

Tim

what he said. that was brilliant!

my gut instinct is not to trust anyone who is doing something "for the children." i don't like what gangsta rap is about, but i like censorship even less. gangsta rap very rarely affects my life...short of being stuck in traffic next to a guy with a boomphy stereo...

[mark tonin]

Marco

I nominate that as Letter to Editor, MP, McTeague etc material

AD

I support this nomination.

We were discussing this issue in one of my classes yesterday. I'm going to show the class this letter today.

Peace, Mark

[Calamity Jane]

I'm not sure about placing "gangsta rap" in the lineage of traditional folk - protest music.

It always seemed to me when listening to folk music that there was an undercurrent of hope...a voice that seemed to say things don't have to be this way...things can be different. The message (implied or otherwise) to the listener, no matter how grim or gruesome the reality, somehow seemed to be...is that the way you want your world or do you want to make a difference (even if it takes a revolution)?

I don't get that sense from gangsta rap (and yes maybe I haven't listened enough). In fact, I get the opposite. I get the message (predominantly male oriented) that hey this is the way things are...you can't do a fuckin' thing about it...so grab yourself a 'ho and a gun cuz it's every man for himself. It's very much a message of defeat and it's that kind of thinking, not the violence, that i find scary.

But then again maybe I've missed the message completely.

Dr. J and On the Journey...you're both to be commended for voicing valid, but unpopular (around here) arguments.

Gangsta Rap is a different beast altogether from HipHop...can we all at least agree to that? I think Dr. J above has brilliantly sussed out the hugely detrimental 'message' ganstarap gives. Yes, it's urban and egdy and 'real', and speaks to the level of frustration, anger and hopelessness experienced by poor, inner-city black youths, who are victims of prevailing racist attitudes BUT to what end? Simply saying "this is it boys, it ain't ever getting better, so grab a gun, pop some, and take what you can before someone else takes you down!" So many young people who ascribe to this belief/lifestyle, what-have-you, that gansta rap promotes do not honestly believe they will grow up into adulthood! Try teaching a "careers" course to inner city TO kids, who dont believe they'll ever see the ripe old age of 25! What is the point of music, if not to ENGAGE people, hopefully making them better, happier and more self-reflective, perhaps? [but this could now mutate into an art VS commercial entertainment debate.]

Anyway, I agree that well-meaning lefties and self-interested politicians may not see the distinction between gansta rap and hiphop, lumping them (and other non-mainstream, edgy stuff) together as a common evil, therein causing our "Anti-censorship" hackles to be raised, but COME ON PEOPLE, are you honestly so committed to the principle of free speech, that you're willing to ignore the rising reality of violence in Canada's urban centres?

None of us are naive enough to say ONE thing is a direct cause of social phenomena...I don;t think anyone here is agruing that getting rid of 50 Cent will cure our societal ills....of course it's larger than that. But to say that 50 Cent has NO impact on the youth of today and their choices IS very naive.

Perhaps this observation will rasie hackles as well, but in my experience, most teenagers (and many adults, for that matter) are sheep. They accept what ideology they're fed, and teens, esp. as susceptible to the pressure of being into what's currently popular. Can we agree that people who DON'T think for themselves are dangerous, not just to themselves, but often to the rest of us? I WAS a teen-sheep of which I speak; I made lots of bad and stupid choices...and luckily LIVED to mature into who I am now. The average age of Board users here I would imagine is 28-30. I have seldom encountered a group of people so socially engaged, so politically aware and so able to argue positions with clear-headed insightfullness. Do we reflect the larger population? Look around at your co-workers....you better believe we are a rare (and dare I compliment us?) enlightened group of folks on here. You are all correct to be indignant about other people choosing for you what you can or cannot see & hear. It's a pisser and an insult to be an intelligent and reflective human and not be "trusted" to make the right choices for oneself. But I would invite you to consider that censorship is necessary when dealing with children/youth.

examples:

do you censor your 'potty mouth' around your children/neices/nephews b/c we don;t really want to hear 5 year olds saying "fuck off, biatch!"

do you censor what DVDs you watch when same said children are present with you?

I deliberately misued the word "censor" above to indicate that censorship is nothing more than making a CHOICE. As a society we have to choose what kind of world we want to create (it doesn't just 'happen' ....it takes choice and action).

Some people say, "I don;t want a world where young inner city kids shoot each other." So the action plan might conceivably be BANNING 50 Cent from Can. appearances AND putting a whack of money (as Deeps suggests) into anti-gun/anti-violence messages in schools, etc.

Again, I have to say, the world we want, is the world we make. That happens on both the small scale (parents teaching children) but also on the larger scale (action groups raising awareness --- like Buy Nothing Day; MADD; and Mothers Against 50 Cent corrupting our Vulnerable Innocents..."MAFCCOVI"...yeah I made it up)

whew...what a rant. I'm always reminded at just how more pleasant these debates would be in person and over a beer (well, many beers)

cheers!

[Velvet]

“...music runs parallel to human society, is structured like it, and changes when it does.â€

Jacques Attali, 'Noise'

[Velvet]

In other words, if you don't like the music, work on the society. Not the other way around.

[Dr. J]

In other words, if you don't like the music, work on the society. Not the other way around.

I agree Velvet. The problem I see with gangsta rap is that it's convincing young black people that's there's no hope of ever changing anything. For all its bravado and machissimo, it's very much a message of defeat, of powerlessness.

In my mind, it sets the history of black America back 50 years to Uncle Remus, Amos 'n' Andy, and Aunt Jemima, only now it's Ice T and P Diddy and Ja Rule. What you have are black stereotypes (self indulgent males/submissive women) being played out for a predominantly white audience. It's a sad spectacle - young black males prostituting themselves for white money (Get Rich or Die Tryin') and then burying the humiliation with fast cars and flashy clothes and hiding the helplessness with smokin' guns and obedient women. It says to young blacks...this is as good as it gets.

I think of the greatness of Mohammad Ali, Rosa Parks, Miles Davis, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King. These folks looked the white people in the eye and said, "Fuck your charity and your condecension. I'm your equal and I'll not bend to your demands!" That took guts. That changes societies! Look at the extensive list of names with whom 50 Cent has feuded and you'll notice a striking commonality...not one of them is white. No wonder Spike Lee just shakes his head.

[AD]

The problem I see with gangsta rap is that it's convincing young black people that's there's no hope of ever changing anything. For all its bravado and machissimo, it's very much a message of defeat, of powerlessness.

Or that it's entertainment and not a prophesy...

I think the vast majority of people realise this.

[MarcO]

I'm not sure about placing "gangsta rap" in the lineage of traditional folk - protest music. It always seemed to me when listening to folk music that there was an undercurrent of hope...a voice that seemed to say things don't have to be this way...things can be different. The message (implied or otherwise) to the listener, no matter how grim or gruesome the reality, somehow seemed to be...is that the way you want your world or do you want to make a difference (even if it takes a revolution)? I don't get that sense from gangsta rap (and yes maybe I haven't listened enough). In fact, I get the opposite. I get the message (predominantly male oriented) that hey this is the way things are...you can't do a fuckin' thing about it...so grab yourself a 'ho and a gun cuz it's every man for himself. It's very much a message of defeat and it's that kind of thinking, not the violence, that i find scary. But then again maybe I've missed the message completely……..

Maybe i'm just hung up on this, but I always felt the folksinger had great respect for those about whom they sang no matter how desperate their situation. Gangsta rap seems to say to them...you're losers and you'll always be losers...so take what you can while you can.

Well, yes it may be a stretch but by “folk†music I mean – if you want to know what life was like for a 17th century Sailor, those experiences are well documented through the traditional folk song – and by no means is that stuff particularly hopeful or pretty. But thank Jebus those songs were written! And so in 200 years from now, people may turn to rap music forms (of which “gangsta†is surely one) to find out what life was like for inner city black youths – again, neither hopeful nor pretty. The societal change goes on around the music – as Velvet pointed out – not through it, and the music changes as a result.

It is a stretch because what really makes folk music what it is is the passing down of these songs and stories from generation to generation – and it is yet to be seen whether the rap form will be handled in such a manner. So yeah, I know there are holes in the argument. What I really meant was as a reflection of what is happening, this musical form serves its function quite well.

And I don’t really know if art should always be hopeful or positive. It is a nice pipe dream but that’s about it. Of course, it can be positive and hopeful – that is the kind I prefer – but you can’t have the light without some dark. As AD said, it is not a prophecy. I will definitely say that legislating the intent of art is just as if not more dangerous than the intent itself. We should never celebrate being sheltered by our leaders, be they political or community leaders. It does us no good whatsoever and can be so easily manipulated once it is in place.

Hopefully one day “gangsta†rap will lose all currency. But that won’t happen because we shelter ourselves from it, it will happen because we have changed in a fundamental way. We can’t change if we don’t know what it is that needs fixing. And therein lies the role that “gangsta†rap holds in the year 2005. It may not provide positive answers but that just makes it depressing, not useless.

Oh, and thank you for those who offered kind words for my post – I enjoyed writing it because I feel very strongly about this kind of stuff. Also, thanks for the dissenting views and keeping things respectful and focused. One day we’ll all have sex.

[mark tonin]

I agree Velvet. The problem I see with gangsta rap is that it's convincing young black people that's there's no hope of ever changing anything. For all its bravado and machissimo, it's very much a message of defeat, of powerlessness.

Is 50 cent gangsta rap? Sorry if I seem naive, but rap and hip hop are genres of music that I don't know very much about.

I had an interesting conversation with my class about the proposal to keep him out of the country. Lots of good discussion and different viewpoints. There was one student in the class that has seen the movie. When I asked him what he took away from the movie, to him it was a message to chose a mic over a gun, that violence isn't the answer. Different people get different messages from songs, videos, shows, etc., but that message certainly doesn't sound like a bad one to me. And it doesn't seem to fit with the definition of gangsta rap, which is why I asked the question above. Then again, maybe the student was just saying what he thought I wanted to hear ... but I don't think so.

I haven't seen the movie, I haven't heard the songs, and I don't know much about him, so I don't feel very qualified to give an opinion on this case. But it is an interesting discussion, as are many discussions about music, censorship, gang violence, and related issues.

Peace, Mark

[Calamity Jane]

One day we’ll all have sex.

all of us together? Ummm...I'll have to see what everyone else thinks before I assent.

[SaggyBalls]

am i going to get stuck holding the camera?

[MarcO]

Now I'm not sure whether to believe this or not but this morning the CBC reported that all 7000 people attending last night's 50-Cent show in Toronto shot each other, leaving only one gunman and 50 Cent, who shot the lone concert attendee and then ate his brains.

Can anyone deny or confirm this report? thanks in advance!

[d_rawk]

Hilarious

I hadn't read this thread until now. MarcO, you are one smart fucking cookie.

[Dr. J]

Can anyone deny or confirm this report? thanks in advance!

Only Bill Cosby and Oprah Winfrey know what really went down

[bradm]

From the Toronto Star's review of the show

The problem with 50 Cent is this: He's freakin' huge without being much of a rapper.

Aloha,

Brad

[AdamH]

Your post was quite well thought out MarcO. I'd like to thank you on behalf of all current, reformed and falling-off-the-smoky-wagon-frequently potheads for beating the stereotype that we are all lazy and stupid.

I've never been a fan of censorship unless it prevents vulnerable audiences (which is up to whatever definition you choose for the word) from harm. 50 cent's music, to my ears, is more painful than a sledgehammer in the gonads - not because of the lyrics but because the rhymes and beats are so boring.

If I were a parent I would at least want my children listening to 36 Chambers, where there's plenty of the same questionable lyrics but set to better music and better samples.

I'd like to be an idealist and think that if Fitty is now a parent he's developing some humility and maybe putting more tact into his music. Snoop's toned it down, Jesus I mean Ice Tea the Cop Killah is on Law and Order! I realize you can't chalk it all up to "Youthful Indiscretions" but I don't know what else to think about him.

As for the MP is strikes me more as "I don't understand this but want it to go away" and that has as much to do with an undercurrent of racism that still breeds fear of the unknown.