Beatle Backs Seals

[peipunk]

Paul McCartney has landed on P.E.I...

Wonder if thats the first time a Beatle has touched down on the Islet?

Buote, throw on one your old backstage passes and try and get an exclusive interview..

Actually, I had him over for tea and scones this afternoon. He gave me a bit of limey haughtiness, so I booted him out the front door with my steel toed work boots.

[StoneMtn]

Pfffft. A guy gets "Sir" added onto his name, and all of a sudden he thinks he can be rude to one of Canada's greatest rock musicians?

Let's see him pull off some nero riffs. Ya, that's right.

Good job punk.

[bradm]

Punk, I hope you engaged in activities that'd give Paul a really good/harsh case of the munchies , and then kicked him out the front door into a neighbourhood that only has BBQ rib restaurants...

Aloha,

Brad

[Birdy]

celebrity 'causes' irk the shit out of me. they're friggin' more fashionable than a fendi bag or a pair of blahniks. never do they offer a viable solution, never do they give regard to the good and decent people who are actually depend on said cause to live and always are they dropped faster than last year's prada jeans.

as far as i am concerned, i'm with ollie. paul mccartney can go fuck off with his backing of the anti-seal hunt movement. i haven't seen one ounce of concern given to the hunter himself, and that is where the real issue lies. it's a matter of SURVIVAL. until i see Sir Paul offer up some kind of alternative, i'll say bah to that entire article that started this thread. seals are cute, yes, but like everything else, have a price on their head. killing anything is inhumane, but unfortunately is necessary for survival and has been long before we knew how to picket.

[ollie]

I for one know Ollie isn't a stupid person

Thanks punk! It's a good thing you don't know me too well.

I'm still a fan of Paul's music, FWIW.

[StoneMtn]

celebrity 'causes' irk the shit out of me.

Would it make a difference if he wasn't a celebrity? It's not as though he is backing this cause to attain fame and fortune. He is merely using his fame to bring attention to a cause he believes in.

As far as sympathy for the hunters, that is just a specious argument. It's the same argument from "necessity" that is used when oil moguls want to drill in protected areas. Usually, when investigated, there are alternatives to choosing the evil path to make that money or obtain the benefit of the oil or whatever it is.

Besides, Dancing Bear already posted in this thread how little money the hunters earn from the seal hunt. I am no expert on the maritimes, but I suspect that with a little ingenuity these people could obtain other work that pays just as little and allows them to live without killing wildlife for a living. I am sure that there is another industry that could be developed there. I don't claim to know which industry that is, but this wouldn't be the first community to develop a new revenue stream when their old stream was found to be outdated, immoral, or otherwise draconian. I suspect that a pointed study of the area and its potential would show this. (If such a study has been done and it was found that I am incorrect, then my point is moot, but I'd need to see that study before I'd concede that point.)

[peipunk]

Just to add a small point to the seal hunt debate, I am fully against the animal cruelty that goes on, i.e. leaving wounded seals to slowly die. But a big point that hasn't been mentioned, is that it is a CULL of the huge seal numbers, which have tripled since the 70s (2000 estimate was 5.5 million seals). Also, pup production was estimated to be around 330,000 pups for the year, with each pup gaining 5 lbs a day from fish. It is as much an effort to try to replenish the fish stocks that the seals DECIMATE as it is to make a living off of the seal pelts. So, as much as I am against inhumane, careless killing, I am not against the actual culling of the numbers. Aren't cows and pigs slaughtered by being shot in the head? I know some are around here. Think of that when you're having your next burger.

Please don't lynch me animal activists! I am just pointing out a couple facts!!!

Edited March 3, 2006 by Guest

[Diggzz]

I don't claim to know which industry that is, but this wouldn't be the first community to develop a new revenue stream when their old stream was found to be outdated, immoral, or otherwise draconian. I suspect that a pointed study of the area and its potential would show this. (If such a study has been done and it was found that I am incorrect, then my point is moot, but I'd need to see that study before I'd concede that point.)

It's called "call-centers" (Huge industry in the Maritimes) So yeah screw tradition and all that crap, why not get a minimum wage job answering phones instead.

[badams]

Some facts about the Seal Hunt

[color:black]1. How big is the Atlantic seal hunt, where is it taking place, and what exactly is being hunted?

There are federal quotas for three types of seals – harp seals, hooded seals and grey seals. Most of the hunt is for harp seals. The 2003-2005 quota for harp seals is 975,000. The quota in 2005 is 319,500. The annual total allowable catch for hooded seals and grey seals stands at 10,000 each. The hunt opens March 29 in the "Gulf" areas around the Magdalen Islands and Prince Edward Island. The main hunt on the so-called "front" begins April 12 off the coast of Newfoundland. It's pretty much over by May.

[color:black]2. What about those cute whitecoat seals?

Whitecoats are newborn harp seals. Most Canadians can recall pictures of whitecoated seal pups being clubbed. The images were so inflammatory that Canada banned all hunting of whitecoats in 1987. You'd never know that from some of the anti-sealing groups that still prominently display pictures of whitecoats on their websites and in fundraising materials. One site even features a downloadable video of people hugging whitecoats. But the reality is that whitecoats can't be hunted anymore. But it's also true that young harp seals lose their white coats (and their protection) at about 12 to 14 days of age. After that, they're fair game for hunters, although they're usually about 25 days old before they're hunted. Most harp seals taken are under the age of three months. Young yes, whitecoats no.

[color:black]3. Isn't it true that the hunt is cruel and seal pups are often skinned alive?

This is a frequent accusation levelled by hunt opponents. The International Fund for Animal Welfare says seals are routinely clubbed or shot and left to suffer on the ice until they're clubbed later. The IFAW also charges that seals are often "skinned before being rendered fully unconscious" and said its observers found that few sealers check for a blinking reflex to confirm brain death before skinning begins. Similar "skinning alive" accusations have also been made by other groups, with many citing studies claiming that up to 45 per cent of seals are "skinned alive."

A 2002 report in the Canadian Veterinary Journal found that "the large majority of seals taken during this hunt … are killed in an acceptably humane manner." This study found that 98 per cent of hunted seals it examined had been killed properly. The federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) cites this study among others as proof that the hunt opponents are wrong in their accusations of widespread cruelty. And regarding the "skinning alive" charge, the DFO says appearances can be deceiving. "Sometimes a seal may appear to be moving after it has been killed," the DFO says. "However, seals have a swimming reflex that is active, even after death. This reflex falsely appears as though the animal is still alive when it is clearly dead – similar to the reflex in chickens."

Furthermore, the DFO says the club, or "hakapik," used by many sealers is "an efficient tool" that kills "quickly and humanely." The Royal Commission on Seals and Sealing in Canada found that clubbing, when properly performed, is at least as humane as killing methods in commercial slaughterhouses. Opponents say clubbing often isn't "properly performed."

The federal government acknowledges that it has laid more than 200 charges against sealers since 1996, but argues that shows it's serious about enforcing its regulations.

[color:black]4. Isn't sealing an important economic activity for an economically disadvantaged group?

The economic value of the seal hunt is another one of those things that is open to interpretation. The federal government says the landed value of seals was $16.5 million in 2004, providing a "significant" source of income for thousands of sealers – benefiting them and their families at a time when, according to the DFO, "other fishing options are unavailable, or limited at best, in many remote, coastal communities."

That amounts to a fraction of the $600-million Newfoundland fishery. But for some sealers, it represents up to a third of their annual income. And in a province with jobless rates north of 15 per cent, they say that means even more.

Not so fast, say the anti-sealing groups. The IFAW describes the contribution of sealing to Newfoundland's GDP as "trivial" and says after costs and indirect subsidies are taken into account (patrolling the hunt, upgrading plants, promoting the hunt, developing new markets for seal products and supporting research to find new products), Canadians would "likely find that the hunt actually costs the Canadian taxpayer money."

It's a pointless activity, in the view of the IFAW, which says, "the only economically valuable part of the seal is its fur, a non-essential luxury product that no one really needs."

The DFO flatly denies that it subsidizes the seal hunt. It also denies charges that the seal hunt is not sustainable. It says Canada's seal population is "healthy and abundant" at about five million animals and "triple what it was in the 1970s."

But the IFAW says the hunt has become a "cull, designed more to achieve short-term political objectives than those of a biologically sustainable hunt." For one thing, the group says Canada's management plan fails to account for wide variations in the natural mortality rates among seal pups.

A critique from Greenpeace also said the quotas are "scientifically indefensible" because they don't take into account the actual number of seals killed in the hunt – including those that are "struck and lost," or discarded because of pelt damage.

[color:black]5. We all know what's happened to the Atlantic cod fishery. Don't seals eat cod?

Yes, harp seals do eat cod, among other things. But both sides now appear to agree that seals and cod can coexist. In March 2005, Greenpeace called on federal Fisheries Minister Gerald Regan to "dispel the myth that seals are hampering the recovery of cod stocks." A letter from Greenpeace said, "the DFO has been a partner in perpetuating this myth."

But the DFO says sealing opponents are setting up a straw man (or seal, in this case) and then knocking it down. The federal government says anti-sealing groups are wrong to suggest that it's allowing the hunt to help cod stocks recover. "The commercial seal quota is established based on sound conservation principles, not an attempt to assist in the recovery of groundfish stocks," the DFO says. "Seals eat cod, but seals also eat other fish that prey on cod."

[Birdy]

my point with celebrity causes is that they're fashionable. they come into fashion, and they go out of fashion, with little regard to the cause. you can't focus all of your attention on making something better and a month down the road just jump ship and abandon it. change requires the long haul. generally celebrities aren't in it for the long haul. this is generally speaking of course, i don't really know if this is a passing fad for paul.

it's really hard for me to see the correlation between an oil company and a seal hunter stone and the 'evils' that you speak of. oil companies are gluttonous with dollar signs for pupils, whereas dancing bear has already pointed out, and you have acknowledged, seal hunters really don't earn a good living. but then again good livings are few and far between on Canada's east coast. Have you ever been out there? Pretty yes, but there's a quiet desperation in the air. You'd think if a solution was possible, governments wouldn't start building highways and abandon them to simply get people on unemployment. That's how bad it is. I'm sure a lot of people who have fought long to find solutions and employment opportunities for Maritimers would find your comments of "a little ingenuity" a slap in the face. It really is that bad. That and aside from clubbing a seal to death, i don't see the hunt as "immoral", it's LIFE.

Edited March 2, 2006 by Guest

[Birdy]

It's called "call-centers" (Huge industry in the Maritimes) So yeah screw tradition and all that crap, why not get a minimum wage job answering phones instead.

HAH! so f'ing TRUE!

[badams]

It's called "call-centers" (Huge industry in the Maritimes) So yeah screw tradition and all that crap' date=' why not get a minimum wage job answering phones instead.[/quote']

HAH! so f'ing TRUE!

And they arent the most reliable jobs either. Bell Canada just closed down their Call Center here in Kingston today. No advanced warning to the employees at all.

[Birdy]

no doubt. other than International (manufactures semi's), Chatham pretty much survives on it's call centre economy. Not only is it volatile, it doesn't offer it's employees an opportunity for growth both on a personal and professional level. People rot in these kinds of jobs. At least with the seal hunt, the hunters have a sense of 'tradition'.

[Tissue Man]

As far as sympathy for the hunters, that is just a specious argument. It's the same argument from "necessity" that is used when oil moguls want to drill in protected areas. Usually, when investigated, there are alternatives to choosing the evil path to make that money or obtain the benefit of the oil or whatever it is.

Besides, Dancing Bear already posted in this thread how little money the hunters earn from the seal hunt. I am no expert on the maritimes, but I suspect that with a little ingenuity these people could obtain other work that pays just as little and allows them to live without killing wildlife for a living. I am sure that there is another industry that could be developed there. I don't claim to know which industry that is, but this wouldn't be the first community to develop a new revenue stream when their old stream was found to be outdated, immoral, or otherwise draconian. I suspect that a pointed study of the area and its potential would show this. (If such a study has been done and it was found that I am incorrect, then my point is moot, but I'd need to see that study before I'd concede that point.)

OK so you compared fisherman that are trying to make a living on very little money for what they do to some guy making millions of dollars raping the land of the oil. great comparison asshole.

And like you say you are not an expert on the maratimes and if you havent lived there you do not know shit. There is a reason so many young people have to leave the east for work, including myself and a shitload of othere people that i know and thats just ottawa.

Edited March 2, 2006 by Guest

[Diggzz]

Good point but no need for "asshole" comment....

[Hux]

I say thank the seal hunt for ensuring Macca is out on the ice and not in the studio churning out some clunker tune...

I'm gonna go home, throw on Band on the Run and have some seal jerky.

[Birdy]

hah! seal jerky.

f'ing sick. i'd imagine it would be super chewy.

[dancingbear]

stonemountain,

your comments are belittling and offensive. "these people", ummh you mean canadians? "ingenuity", maybe we could get into fish farms like b.c. and breed things in captivity before killing them? or maybe we could cut down the forests? i realize you might not agree morally or ethically with the aforementioned things, however, some people find them just as "outdated, immoral, or otherwise draconian," yet they continue. your comments truly display ignorance about newfoundlanders and labradorians tyring to protect their families, culture and heritage. The devestation that has hit rural communities is truly that, devestating.

It is obvious you have never been here.

baadams,

thanks for the post, very informative.

ollie and birdy,

agree with your words, about atlantic canada AND ticket prices. while i realize most people are against the hunt for 'animal right' reasons, there is still something irksome about a multi-millionaire coming to someones home (he landed in newfoundland yesterday) and saying stop what your doing, even thought i realize if you do you will have no money for food, or your house, and probably have to relocate to st.john's where if your very very very lucky get a job.

Just to add fuel to the debate....

the olympics in vancouver. obvious benefits for the infrastructure in B.C. and to the B.C. economy. How will this benefit atlantic canada?

some people have no idea about the huge socio-economic discrepencies that exist between provinces.

[Lazlo]

Yah! Yah! Hit it again. Two more times and we'll stick some fire crackers up its ass.

[dancingbear]

The debate continues....on LARRY KING LIVE tomorrow night....

danny williams (premiere of newfoundland and labrador) vs. paul McCartney.

[StoneMtn]

My point about people justifying the hunt because it earns money, was not to say that hunters grow rich from it. My point is that if something is wrong, that thing doesn't become right, because people make a living doing it. (Whether or not seal hunting is wrong, though, is really the question, here.)

When I said it is the same argument used by large companies, I did so to show how illogical the argument is. I was not saying that companies and hunters are comparable.

That said, I apologize for offending some of you by using that comparison. It does go too far, as there are very different motivations at work.

[Im going home Donny]

I don't think you're an asshole in the least stoner.

DFO seems to sleep in the same bed as procter and gamble and all them other hos as far as I can reckon.

Edited March 3, 2006 by Guest

[Im going home Donny]

Yah! Yah! Hit it again. Two more times and we'll stick some fire crackers up its ass.

thats some nice tradition there man...awesome.

[Birdy]

My point about people justifying the hunt because it earns money, was not to say that hunters grow rich from it. My point is that if something is wrong, that thing doesn't become right, because people make a living doing it. (Whether or not seal hunting is wrong, though, is really the question, here.)

yes that is the point really. whether you find hunting seal morally offensive-- which i don't. but in finding something morally offensive and fighting to 'correct' it, there is a blatant disregard for the 'humanity' of it all, and thisis morally offensive. This is what I reacted to, and i'm sure a few others too in this thread.

When I said it is the same argument used by large companies, I did so to show how illogical the argument is. I was not saying that companies and hunters are comparable.

Understandable. I guess the point wasn't as clear, or in the least left a wide open field to be interpreted a different way, which from my own past experience, I should be able to understand.

That said, I apologize for offending some of you by using that comparison. It does go too far, as there are very different motivations at work.

I think more people were offended by you suggesting an alternative could easily be attained if people just put their thinking caps on (or something to that effect). Maritimers are a PROUD people who have been struggling with that pride for years and years and years. Don't think that they wouldn't adapt something if they could.

Then again, you did disclaimer your post, and credit should be given for that.

[MarcO]

My apologies to Ollie for being so callous yesterday. I do disagree with his sentiment regarding McCartney's "compassion routine" but I'm having trouble lately maintaining my patience in the face of opposition, and for that I sincerely apologize.

I've been a bit stressed lately and I don't even know why. Life is good. Sorry Ollie.