Kung's letter to Exclaim!

[bouche]

I'll see the shazzaam and raise a kapowie for the fact that dude signed up for the board just to make zero look like a douce bag

[Deeps]

An attack on the guy's grammar in a rant is all Exclaim has?

Weak.

[bradm]

Actually, it wasn't (just) an attack on his grammar: it was a refutation of his claims of being a "superior writer", backed up with examples of mistakes a writer shouldn't make.

Aloha,

Brad

[AD]

i can't remember the last time ZeroLukeKung published his writing on this site.

Pretty much guaranteed to get a discussion out of it, unlike a static publication like Exclaim.

[bouche]

write you are!

[AdamH]

Yeah you should correct the grammar before sending it in but presumably you use spellcheck so it's a non-issue.

Maybe I'm naive but I think that Exclaim! would cover bands like the slip if the readership or coolness was there. The timing might be right with them opening for MMJ even though that speaks nothing of their 10+ years going hard and strong.

I think the letter's well written buddy but I wouldn't expect much response from their end. Do you remember my friend Andy from Hillside (the Korean dude). He writes for exclaim so if you want his email address I can pass it on, maybe he has some suggestions.

[zero]

Their (see see) message board doesn't have an edit function. I wrote that off the cuff and without any editing. If that is really all they have then not only are they as socially insecure as they seem they are incredibly grasping as well.

It's just that basic.

I think frankly they are sitting there telling themself 'this guy doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about' and 'we're cool guys are'nt we - we're cool right?'

Think about it it's a fucking tyranny of sound. Someone else can come up with the definition of tyranny vs. oligarchy say although meritocracy immediately also comes to mind (here's looking at you BradM - Book 1 Plato's republic - Thrasymachus/ Justice as the interest of the stronger).

If you disagree with them personally they won't print you. That is natural people work that way but it's not in the best interest of the listening and reading community. Something I am increasingly conscious of is trying to get past ego. It used to be, at least unconsciously, that if a band or artist I admired rejected me or at least didn't accept me then I would somehow reep vengeance at least subtly in a write up. But who am I to try and exact vengeance over some perceived slight. I'm suggesting to you that writers with far less self insight (and frankly Chives2 and I both share severe mental illness and extreme creativity) and challenges likely never think of this.

[Davey Boy 2.0]

i can't remember the last time ZeroLukeKung published his writing on this site.

Pretty much guaranteed to get a discussion out of it, unlike a static publication like Exclaim.

bezang!

[zero]

Oh and here's the thread Chives2: Stop The Inanity from their message board. Sign up and tell them what you think, you'd be the only engaging community that uses that message board. What a catalyst for musical community Exclaim! is.

Funny how they have the balls to come on here and point out my grammar. But don't respond on their own board. Strength of your convictions. It all comes down to that.

[lara]

Hey Luke.

That was an insightful letter. I've thought about Chives2 quite a bit before, even to the point of asking Dave if Chives2 was you!

They will judge you based on your grammar and spelling. That’s for sure. They'll be coming from a defensive standpoint and you have given them something to criticize. However, I do for the most part respect the Exclaim! writers, they are a mostly intelligent bunch and I'm sure your letter will have the desired impact. Whether they'll actually turn to you to cover The Slip, I feel is unlikely. I plan to write to them about The Slip, and recommend you as the perfect guy for the job.

I now write for a paper that includes Exclaim! writers as well... maybe that will give me some leverage. Unlikely though... but worth a try.

[lara]

Have you sent them a query/proposal Luke?

If not, that would probably balance out the leftist letter with a touch of professionalism..

[ollie]

If you disagree with them personally they won't print you. That is natural people work that way but it's not in the best interest of the listening and reading community. Something I am increasingly conscious of is trying to get past ego. It used to be, at least unconsciously, that if a band or artist I admired rejected me or at least didn't accept me then I would somehow reep vengeance at least subtly in a write up. But who am I to try and exact vengeance over some perceived slight. I'm suggesting to you that writers with far less self insight (and frankly Chives2 and I both share severe mental illness and extreme creativity) and challenges likely never think of this.

I still think you need to work on getting past your ego Luke.

[Deeps]

I'm not sure we're on the same page here Deeps. Are you the guy in that prog rock jamband that showed up a couple years ago?

If I'm going to write for Exclaim! (which clearly isn't likely but should be) it has to be on my terms just as it has to be on Chives. It is hurtful to think you don't get this point. Staggering levels of arrogance, maybe. Staggering levels of hyperbole, definitely. What is staggeringly arrogant is a limp dick like James Keast and Michael Barclay forwarding their internet dating strategies in the guise of music journalism. It's a tyranny of sound and requires a tyrannical response. Stick with the bass and I'll stick with the words, dig.

I should not have read and responded on a Monday morning....this letter is not nearly as combative on my second read.

Sorry for the dis there Luke. I can't believe noone has responded over on the Exclaim! board.

Signing up now. Doing some research and then I'm going to swear A LOT.

Cheers

Deeps

[lara]

Letter to Exclaim! written and sent.

I'll send you a copy Luke.

[zero]

Here is a fascinating point.

Exclaim! can only respond to the form not the content of what I have said (which is precisely what I have accused them of doing re: context laden music communities).

Ollie, I agree with the way to go with regard to ego bit but you are also WAY off base. Sarah Hampson wrote of John Mayer recently that he has the 'arrogance of the gifted' and that about sums it up. The I Ching would say that if you give up on ego the superior will always rise to the top. What then does that mean, some are superior and some are inferior but all are equal? Confusing to get your head around. I work on a daily basis to keep my ego in check. I am a garde mangier in a culinary environment and am dealt with brusquely on a daily basis by chefs I admire. If music writers (event coordinators and everyone else) had some experience in a very challenging environment like a high end kitchen I suspect they would have a great deal to support their writing. Negative space on the plate, taking ownership, communicating openly, listening to everything, not responding, taking ownership. Seriously I deal with humiliating/humbling situations on a daily basis yet depend on my edge (Ego) as a writer. Sometimes you all mistake being erudite for being egotistical. You have no idea where I am at as a person right now (as is the case in reverse).

My attitude, the attitude that has won me my recent successes, is to share everything with everyone. Empathize with others, offer everything you can, listen above all else. It's a new lesson for me of course. People aren't interested in your shit, they're interested in their shit. Negotiating is leaving something on the table.

[ollie]

You have no idea where I am at as a person right now (as is the case in reverse).

Exactly! So why are you making all these assumptions about the motives of the Exclaim staff? It seems to me like all you are saying is, "The stuff I like is better than the stuff they like." For example, you bring up Holy Fuck as an example of the type of music they should be covering but I can't think of a bigger "flavour of the month" than Holy Fuck right now.

Also, are we even sure that someone from Exclaim is behind the user account here?

P.S. Not trying to pick a fight. Genuinely interested in the discourse.

[phorbesie]

At what point am I entitled to the fact that I have a thoroughgoing understanding of a diverse range of music scenes in Canada. I know this comes off like arrogance but it's sort of like dignity too. I guess I don't need uniform support from the community. I guess I'm getting a dose of my own medecine. I also know that I'm one of the few legitimate (and I use that term very loosely) ambassadors this scene has- AND IT'S A PAIN IN THE ASS (loving something that hates you). Fuck off already, in a good way.

i think if you presented yourself in a more professional manner they would be more open to giving you an article to write, and/or be more receptive to what you send them.

i don't know of any line of work that is going to hire someone who calls their product and staff crap, so why would this be different?

at what point are you entitled to be recognized as having a thorough knowledge of music? maybe when you can display said knowledge in a respectable manner...? you may (or may not) have great insight to share about music, but i don't think anyone is going to want your ideas when you insult them. i mean, the first part was kind and showed that you like their magazine, but then you insult them. if you are trying to get in the door, they will remember that. i'm not sure who exactly you sent the letter to, but i can't see them loving you for telling them they suck!

Edited September 19, 2006 by Guest

[zero]

What people on this board don't know about music, journalism, new journalism and the creative process could fill a book (one which I will likely write).

I can hardly type right now. Some douche on the Exclaim! board just referred to me as a manic delusional coke head which may have been true at one point but is not now. I am incredibly hurt and think it is wholly unsatisfactory to criticize someone on the basis of their mental illness particularly if self identified. Wholly unsatisfactory and the Minister of Health George Smitherman has my back on this one.

You're point Ollie and Phorbs is well conceded. The thing is see how we're actually engaged in a dialogue here. This 'JohnB' guy resorted to the lowest trick in the debating handbook - attack the source. A critique is a critique, take it for what it's worth. If a critique didn't hit on strong points and weak points it would lack merit altogether. Clearly this magazine is not into self reflection and they're not into our music culture (if they use the word noodling in a pejorative sense one more time in that mag I'm going to lose it) which to my mind is the strongest (although at a low ebb) in the country. There is something to be said for professionalism and tact there is also something to be said for just judging the output as a standalone. I have support in this country from people like Travis and Dallas Good, Feist, Brendan Canning, Dale Murray and Paul Aucoin - that was intentional name dropping and it's not like we're friends but I think those people may look at me as a bit of a madman but also that I really mean well and adore the Canadian music scene. Sometimes I think my name is 'Hey Man' though. Joules Scott Keye from Metric just calls me Bananas or Goes Bananas for obvious dancing reasons and I dig that. I need to just have the strength of my convictions, treat people decently and support everyone in their work. I think you all may think I am always just cozying up to famous musicians when really I'm cozying up to every musician (even shite ones) and I don't make much of a distinction.

I am not the Canadian music ambassador but I am a Canadian music ambassador and I take the values of ambassadorship to heart. I am the ambassador of the Side Man.

Here's what Chives2 had to say in private exchange (we're really not the same person):

it's like preaching to the choir...some get it, some don't. people think my arguments and rants or whatever are about musical taste...people can like whatever they want, but my message, as it seems yours is too, is that the heights have never been reached. and spelling mistakes and grammatical mistakes happen- big deal. i'll take bad grammar and spelling over light-weight writers with perfect syntax any day.

[kung]

Oh, and Ollie I don't come down to your work and slap the cock out of your mouth.

[Davey Boy 2.0]

so much for discourse

and in defence of ollie i think that bone was only in his mouth for a few seconds

[phorbesie]

bwah

[AdamH]

Phorbesie did touch on the point though that they're not going to be more receptive the louder you get so where is any of that really going? The ranting, hooting and hollering you're doing here, if taken there would only give them more reason to ignore you and what your writing.

What if you started posting a few of your show and album reviews to their message board and see where that takes you? From a PR standpoint the controversy that you're already generating is great and someone there will eventually take notice of reviews coming from "that same shit-disturber".

You definitely have a flair for creative and challenging writing but it sometimes comes off like you need to talk over the reader. If you'd rather not make your art accessible by general people like Exclaim! readers that's ok, but yelling at the orange to become an apple is...well....fruitless.

[Deeps]

All this is making me want to read Exclaim and figure it out for myself.

Anyway...there is much drama here and I don't know if it's going to achieve anything other than getting you alienated even more bro.

Luke I believe in you and your passion for music, I will stand by most of your POVs as they are well thought out and definitely align with mine as a performer who is fucking sick to death of the uber-faux-loser motif that dominates the majority of crowds other than Noodly-sect. At least in this city.

BUT

You do manage to offend me and insult my intelligience often when you see me. Me, the person who actually gives you respect and attempts to garner you some from others who have written you off.

I am easy going and manage not to care after I see you, but others deafen themselves to anything you say from that point forward or worse go on the offensive.

You seem to have a handle on the drug thing and you've made strides in understanding your condition...I can see the improvement and commend you for that. It's now time to understand that socially you are shooting yourself in the foot and it's not cool and it doesn't need to be that way.

I want you to succeed and I want you to change things, in fact I fucking need you to change things, but I will never see that happen so long as you're bent on telling people how inadequate they are in such pointed and demeaning ways and by proxy shutn doors that you need open to succeed.

You want to be a leader? You need to start acting like one and respect that people have different processes, intelligience levels and different hang-ups (i.e. journalistic cliché or pandering to their social circles in print). Are these hang-ups destructive to the culture? absolutely. Are the people with them completely incureable insufferable morons? not likely, so don't treat them and their paper like they are.

This industry is wacked. Artists and Journalists alike and you've got some great ideas, we around here would like to see them see the light of day.

I need to say that I have a lot of respect for you and like that you are in Guelph stirring the pot. I hope this blurb is perceived as constructive criticism and my opinion based on my interactions with you. I don't know all about you, but I do live in the same town and am a musician so I thinks it's somewhat qualified.

Edited September 20, 2006 by Guest
the word "often" has been placed where "everytime" used to be!

[Davey Boy 2.0]

You do manage to offend me and insult my intelligience everytime you see me.

would it be crass to ask for details/examples/anecdotes?

[Deeps]

Note that I spelled intelligience wrong.

I kind of purge them post conversation but they exist and I take back every time that was a generalisation I've had a number of interactions with Luke where he listened to what I have to say and didn't kick my brain in its balls.