Huge ectasy bust.....

[secondtube]

i have a feeling that you and I aren't the only ones who strongly disagree with Willy.

[The Chameleon]

decriminalization simply means you would not receive a criminal conviction for possession.

it's not the same as legalization and regulation.

correct me if i'm wrong, i don't use drugs!

Ok I will.

For example weed is not legal anywhere in the world even in Amsterdam. It is decriminalized in the city. This means it is allowable in certain locals under specific circumstances and the gov't taxes it. Much like alcohol here.

That is my understanding anyways.

As for the tax thing. By regulating it and allowing the gov't to tax it like any other vice the economy would take a boost and we could free up cops to track down other more pressing threats.

The social implications I feel are nil as people are already doing whatever drugs they want and will not stop at all. So really socially it would be better as we would mark ourselves as progressive and throw out prohibitionist theory that does not work. We need to stop treating drugs as a criminal issue and start regarding them as a health issue.

Just my view.

As has been shown in Holland, decriminalization does not equal more use.

[Tooly]

wow what a read this thread is.

i was happy to see the bust, the world doesnt need 140,000 more e pills, that is the fucking truth. as far as de-criminilizing drugs, i see your point, to regulate what goes into your x (N-Methyl-3,4-methylenedioxy-A). the list of ingredients is impressive, so is the recipe, its out there, my favourite part is when you add 40grams of tinfoil to be dissolved in the chemical reaction, resulting in your favourite drug. regulated pharmy labs or not, it is fucking gross, and dangerous to make, i dont see why anyone would still want to do it, i stopped years ago, im not trying to be holier than thou, there is just so much info about the ill effects, ahh what am i talking about, i still smoke cigarettes.

pot is a very different ballpark indeed. i could see pot being decrimm-ed, but it would make us more like amsterdam, with thousands of drug tourists, dealers, shady fuckers, hoookers, and the rest, im sure some of you(lazlo) would love it, but i wouldnt.

bottom line, i agree with ya steve, edger, willy, chameleon, i dunno boy-o-s, i just cant say x and pot are equally bad, or that i want to make either legal for the greater good.

Edited March 15, 2007 by Guest

[Esau.]

Ok I will.

For example weed is not legal anywhere in the world even in Amsterdam. It is decriminalized in the city. This means it is allowable in certain locals under specific circumstances and the gov't taxes it. Much like alcohol here.

That is my understanding anyways.

In 1976, the Netherlands adopted de facto decriminalization. Under Dutch law, possession remains a crime, but the national policy of the Ministry of Justice is to not enforce that law. After 1980, a system of “coffee shops†evolved in which the purchase of small quantities of cannabis by adults was informally tolerated and was then formally permitted in shops that were licensed.

Sources:

1.Engelsman EL. Dutch policy on the management of drug-related problems. Br J Addiction. 1989. ;84:211–218.

2.Leuw E, Marshall IH, eds. Between Prohibition and Legalization: The Dutch Experiment in Drug Policy. Amsterdam, the Netherlands: Kugler Publications; 1994 .

3.Cohen PDA. The case of the two Dutch drug policy commissions: an exercise in harm reduction, 1968–1976. In: Erickson PG, Riley DM, Cheung YW, O’Hare PA, eds. Harm Reduction: A New Direction for Drug Policies and Programs. Toronto, Ontario, Canada: University of Toronto Press; 1997. :17–31.

----------------------------

When I was there in 1997, almost half those coffe shops had been shut down, as well the laws were being enforced mainly due to the increase in under age usage and due to the growing increase in crime and negative impact that tolerance was having.

[edit to add]

I'm sure Shainhouse could shed some better light on the current situation seeing as he is living there.

Edited March 15, 2007 by Guest

[questcequecest?]

i guess my point was that, decriminalization doesn't mean the government will necessarily sell and tax it (pot or e). nor does it mean that federal agencies will be responsible for overseeing the safe production of narcotics... it simply means that if you are caught with the seedy asian weed you bought from the molson plant, you will receive a ticket, or a slap on the wrist, but not a criminal conviction.

my point is that you are mixing ideas... decriminalization does not equal federal regulation, cultivation, distribution, or taxation.

[MarcO]

i have a feeling that you and I aren't the only ones who strongly disagree with Willy.

[PalacePrincess]

qqc is right.

and e is fucking gross.

comparing it to pot is laughable. that's like comparing crystal to coffee.

[shainhouse]

Ah, time for me to intervene... Wow, what an interesting debate from a fairly one-sided argument. I'm on the side of public safety, so the fuckers that created this lab can become someone else's in prison, for all I care.

But onto Dutch policies; marijuana is illegal in Holland. Essentially, it is tolerated, along with everything else in Holland, but I do not live in a liberal, accepting country. The Netherlands is exhaustively conservative to no end, and drug regulation is the same. The government is very much big brother in the situation - that is why some coffee shops closed and there are no more licenses being given out - but it is tolerated. The key to life here is a Calvinist ethos; do whatever you choose, including X and Acid and all sorts of legal herbal shit you can get in the 'Smart Shop Drug Stores' here, as long as you don't bother or annoy anyone else.

So to be honest, no one really cares about light drug use here. Using hard drugs could land you in jail for 10 years though. When it comes to pot, Were used to tourists blowing their brains out in the coffee shops, and most of my dutch friends do not smoke, myself included. I quit since I moved here. Plus the growing is regulated like water here, so no shadiness.. well, less shadiness.

Saying that, marijuana is just not a big deal, as bad as cigarettes and coffee and alcohol. It's tolerated, but not accepted, nor legal.

Edited March 15, 2007 by Guest

[The Chameleon]

wow what a read this thread is.

i was happy to see the bust, the world doesnt need 140,000 more e pills, that is the fucking truth. as far as de-criminilizing drugs, i see your point, to regulate what goes into your x (N-Methyl-3,4-methylenedioxy-A). the list of ingredients is impressive, so is the recipe, if youve ever wondered how to make it, there you go, my favourite part is when you add 40grams of tinfoil to be dissolved in the chemical reaction, resulting in your favourite drug. regulated pharmy labs or not, it is fucking gross, and dangerous to make, i dont see why anyone would still want to do it, i stopped years ago, im not trying to be holier than thou, there is just so much info about the ill effects, ahh what am i talking about, i still smoke cigarettes.

pot is a very different ballpark indeed. i could see pot being decrimm-ed, but it would make us more like amsterdam, with thousands of drug tourists, dealers, shady fuckers, hoookers, and the rest, im sure some of you(lazlo) would love it, but i wouldnt.

bottom line, i agree with ya steve, edger, willy, chameleon, i dunno boy-o-s, i just cant say x and pot are equally bad, or that i want to make either legal for the greater good.

The method you are metioning is the "pirate" or "moonshine" version of MDMA.

Real MDMA is not made like this and does not involve dissolving tinfoil. They do that because it is difficult to get some of the controlled chemicals to make it.

Real MDMA as synthesized by Shuglin is a pure substance.

Regulation could get rid of all the dangerous manufacturing techniques, like the one you detailed.

In any case it is all academic as there will never be decriminalization of MDMA or pot in this country.

The US would never tolerate that and we haven't the spine or economic will to stand up to their influence. And many people still see a need to fear and demonize drug use.

So I imagine everything will keep on going on as it has. Many people will still do "E" and love it. Many will still demonize it and hate it, and criminal organizations will continue to laugh all the way to the bank.

Edited March 15, 2007 by Guest

[Esau.]

I dunno, I think marijuana could be decriminalized here one day, even the US has decriminalized small amounts of marijuana possession in 12 states (as of 2001). Oregon being the first in 1973.

[paisley]

Decriminalize all of it and make it safer for everyone.

how exactly do you think decriminalisation will make dirty chemical drugs like ecstasy "safter for everyone?"

I know pretty much whats in my legal bag of Lay's potato chips

if they were a black market purchase, it'd be pretty easy to picture cheaper acquisitions containing trans fats (possibly even MSG)

(guess my operative word there was actually LEGAL... oh perfect world... whats taking you so long?)

one of the hardest drugs I've ever done is alcohol... and prohibition doesn't work

Edited March 15, 2007 by Guest

[paisley]

on the topic of the original bust though... I distrust big companies all around for the most part

if a chemistry grad is making pills he takes care to make safe for the good of his scene or environment its one thing... any organization churning out mass quantity for the obvious goal of mass profit is much less easy to feel trust or sorrow for

[timouse]

this has turned in to an excellent read indeed.

i went from being distrustful of e to trying it and really liking it, after many pleasant experiences and some not so pleasant ones, i think i'm out.

if you can grow it, it's ok. if you need a lab and hard to obtain chemicals to produce it, that's enough to make me think twice.

as far as pot being decriminalized and/or legalized,

BC’s Marijuana Crop Worth Over $7 Billion Annually

Contact(s):

Dr. Stephen T. Easton, SFU Professor of Economics and Senior Fellow

The Fraser Institute, Tel

Email: stevee@fraserinstitute.ca

Click here for the complete publication.

Release Date: June 9, 2004

Vancouver, BC - BC’s annual marijuana crop, if valued at retail street prices and sold by the cigarette, is worth over $7 billion, according to a new study Marijuana Growth in British Columbia released today by The Fraser Institute.

Among issues considered in the paper are whether marijuana could be decriminalized, treated like any legal product, and the revenue taxed. Using conservative assumptions about Canadian consumption, this could translate into potential revenues for the government of over $2 billion.

The study’s author, Stephen Easton, professor of economics at Simon Fraser University and a Senior Fellow at The Fraser Institute, estimates that there are roughly 17,500 marijuana grow ops in BC.

Marijuana is produced extensively and over 23 percent of Canadians admit to having used it. Easton points out that the broader social question has become not whether we approve or disapprove of local production, but rather who shall enjoy the spoils.

“If we treat marijuana like any other commodity we can tax it, regulate it, and use the resources the industry generates rather than continue a war against consumption and production that has long since been lost,†said Easton. “It is apparent that we are reliving the experience of alcohol prohibition of the early years of the last century.â€

Indoor marijuana cultivation and consumption appears to be higher in BC than in the rest of Canada. Easton points out that the most striking difference is that only 13 percent of offenders in BC are actually charged while that number climbs to 60 percent for the rest of Canada. In addition, the penalties for conviction in BC are low: fifty-five percent of those convicted receive no jail time.

While police resources are spent to destroy nearly 3,000 marijuana grow-ops a year in BC, the consequences are relatively minor for those convicted. The industry is simply too profitable to prevent new people moving into production and old producers from rebuilding.

“Unless we wish to continue the transfer of these billions from this lucrative endeavor to organized crime, the current policy on prohibition should be changed. Not only would we deprive some very unsavoury groups of a profound source of easy money, but also resources currently spent on marijuana enforcement would be available for other activities,†said Easton.

Note that the authors of this study have worked independently and the opinions expressed by them are their own.

- 30 -

The Fraser Institute is an independent research and educational organization based in Canada. Its mission is to measure, study, and communicate the impact of competitive markets and government intervention on the welfare of individuals. To protect the Institute’s independence, it does not accept grants from governments or contracts for research.

[Tooly]

i wish pot was decriminalized here, even regulated, legal, have a buds + suds store, 50 strains just like the beer store, which would be conveniently attached.

MDMA is a molecule strand, it doesnt really matter how you get there, when you get there all you have is mdma. paisley is right, you would have to be a chem grad to even think about it, even in a lab the reactions are violent

most of that trans fat free shit is bunked anyways if they exceed said oils burning temp, something happens to the oil, some reaction, and it turns right into a hydrogonized? trans fat

if you can grow it, it's ok. if you need a lab and hard to obtain chemicals to produce it, that's enough to make me think twice

word up. i couldnt agree more to that statement

Edited March 15, 2007 by Guest

[paisley]

most of that trans fat free shit is bunked anyways if they exceed said oils burning temp, something happens to the oil, some reaction, and it turns right into a hydrogonized? trans fat

oh perfect world... whats taking you so long?!

[Tooly]

its all those transfats slowin it down

[\/\/illy]

...you either have no idea what I'm talking about, or you're the most skeptical and cynical person I know.

Perhaps a little from column "A" and a little from column "B".

[Sarahbelle]

What worries me about e is the kids. That really freaks me out. There were 2 kids in that house. What if one ate one of those pills??

Also...e is becoming soo avalible to kids nowadays! Kids do it at school dances and stuff. (lol.. I sound like a grandma...)

I feel like e is prety dangerous. . .I can't say I've never done it, and it is pretty fun once and while. But I am an adult and I know what it can do to you. A kid maybe dones't know the effects.

I think that's mainly why they have laws in place, to protect the children!!

I also have to say, weed and e are sooo different. The effects on your body and the effects of the drug are like day and night as far as I'm concerned.

there are so many debates about all of this and I'm not really on one side or the other...

Another thing that freaks me out is the 'filler' what the hell are they putting in there??

*scary stuff...*

[Davey Boy 2.0]

Brit study on drug use and policy, from Alternet Edited March 15, 2007 by Guest
too high to think straight

[bradm]

Another thing that freaks me out is the 'filler' what the hell are they putting in there??

*scary stuff...*

I think in the case of medicines like aspirin, a form of chalk (calcium carbonate) is often used as a filler.

Aloha,

Brad

[paisley]

Brit study on drug use and policy, from Alternet

good article

find it ironic our continent's "free" societies prohibit drug use but allow shellfish, red meat, military service, commercial television and auto racing

[phishtaper]

I think in the case of medicines like aspirin, a form of chalk (calcium carbonate) is often used as a filler.

its not so much a filler as it is a buffer to prevent upset stomach. any antacid like calcium carbonate or magnesium oxide can be used to prevent ASA absorption in the stomach. Bufferin is a good example. e would probably contain less expensive, and less pure talc - which wouldnt kill ya at that dose, but really who knows. these arent exactly sterile labs.

[paisley]

so what the hell was the orange crap they put in my prescription cough syrup that made it unbearable to ingest? (and seemingly interfered amazingly with the syrup's ability to supress a cough)

sure made me feel like I was getting my $160 for 200 millilitres worth... ended up borrowing some of a friend's morphine to stop coughing, was all better one day later after 2 months of pain, stress and discomfort (and $600 in prescriptions)

modern pharmacology - Dr. Frankenstein crossed with Donald Trump

[Tooly]

corn starch is a big filler for pressies, it helps the drugs clump together and hold said shape.

[phishtaper]

exactly, the "inactive ingredient" (filler) would probably be a cheap starch, some sort of wax, powdered sugar, industrial talc or maybe even baking soda.