Tookie Dead

[Thorgnor]

Manson is still alive if I'm not mistaken and if he is dead the gov't didn't give him a death sentence and he's "just another gang-banger" as tube so eloquently put it...

No wait... he's not just another gang-banger!!!!! He's white!! Our mistake.

BTW, before becoming a mass murderer, Hitler reinvigorated an economy that had been demolished and held down for a generation and brought prosperity to a poeple who had been ghetto-ized by the rest of Europe. I don't think he weas nominated posthumously for the nobel.

[TheGoodRev]

Why not plead to a lesser charge and avoid the death penalty if there was invovlement? I don't think that there is an unbiased report to be found.

"can someone forward me a link, or a unbiased news story, about what the heck ya'll are talking about.

Tookie?" leads to "oh, just another gang banger...."

Why ask for an unbiased report when you've already decided on him based on affiliation?

PS. everyone on this board is a criminal by association. Keep talking tough on crime.

Dude

I think Stube made that comment AFTER reading the article, and while he used a term that I suppose could be considered derogatory towards gang-members (is this a faction we're really worried about offending?), he nevertheless used it in reference to a guy who co-founded one of the most violent and widespread gangs in the United States.

I am personally opposed to the death penalty, but just because this guy was put to death doesn't make him innocent. Like everybody already said, he wouldn't admit guilt, nor could he prove innocence, after all those years. Check out the article on Wikipedia detailing what he did. He didn't deserve to die by the hand of the state, but he sure as hell wasn't innocent.

[ollie]

Seriously, what is the compelling evidence that he did not commit the crime for which he was sentenced to death? Mistaken identity? Framed? What?

[TheGoodRev]

No wait... he's not just another gang-banger!!!!! He's white!! Our mistake.

Buddy! The guy co-founded a massive violent gang! 'Gang-banger' is a term that refers to people who are in gangs! This isn't racial issue!

BTW, before becoming a mass murderer, Hitler reinvigorated an economy that had been demolished and held down for a generation and brought prosperity to a poeple who had been ghetto-ized by the rest of Europe.

Yeah, he really took that ghetto-ization to heart, it became one of his favourite tools. I can't believe you're going to try and point out good things about Hitler. I don't give a goddamn what he did to an economy. When you are Adolf Fucking Hitler, it doesn't matter if give cunnilingus to God herself, you are no fucking angel.

[Freeker]

Tookie and AHHH-nold used to be buddies back in the weightlifting days.

All i know if I was the founder of an massive powerful gang with hundreds of followers willing to do my bidding. I would never have gotten my hands dirty by killing anyone. That's why I think he's been so adamant about not admitting to the murders. He didn't commit THOSE particular murders, he'll admit to ones he did but not to THOSE murders, its a sign of his misguided yet never changing character.

Either way, he either did it or ordered it both gets you life in prison in my book, but not a death sentence. Seems like he tried to become a better person that alone should have taken the death penalty off the table

[Davey Boy 2.0]

i'll do your bidding there freeker

[Thorgnor]

"I didn't think it was ever about him claiming to be innocent" - And I don't think that I ever claimed innocence. But I do think this guy was more use alive than dead.

It is an ugly side of poeple that comes out 20 years after the fact when they still scream "Kill".

Re; Tookie - "On December 12, 2005, Schwarzenegger denied clemency for Williams. In his denial, Schwarzenegger cited the following:

* "The possible irregularities in Williams’ trial have been thoroughly and carefully reviewed by the courts, and there is no reason to disturb the judicial decisions that uphold the jury’s decisions that he is guilty of these four murders and should pay with his life";

* The basis of his request for clemency is the "personal redemption Stanley Williams has experienced and the positive impact of the message he sends" yet "it is impossible to separate Williams' claim of innocence from his claim of redemption";

* "Cumulatively, the evidence demonstrating Williams is guilty of these murders is strong and compelling";..."there is no reason to second-guess the jury's decision of guilt";

* A "close look at his post-arrest and post-conviction conduct tells a story different from redemption";

* Williams had written books that instruct readers to avoid the gang lifestyle and to stay out of prison.... From 1995 he "tried to preach a message of gang avoidance and peacemaking.... "It is hard to assess the effect of such efforts in concrete terms, but the continued pervasiveness of gang violence leads one to question the efficacy of Williams' message";

* The dedication of Williams' book Life in Prison casts significant doubt on his personal redemption...the mix of individuals on [the dedication] list is curious"..."but the inclusion of George Jackson on the list defies reason and is a significant indicator that Williams is not reformed.

Schwarzenegger summarized by basing his denial of clemency on the "totality of circumstances" "

Tookie's hero George Jackson became a Black Panther in prison - "While at San Quentin State Prison in 1966, he founded the Black Guerilla Family, a Marxist revolutionary organization. The original goal of the group was to eradicate racism, to maintain dignity in prison and to overthrow the United States government."

Politics, not justice.

[Hartamophone]

"In addition, he was asked multiple times while in prison to aid law enforcement by providing insight into gang behaviour/communication, and never would." - Hartamaphone

Can you link me to the place where you found this info so that I can send it to nobel and they can revoke his nomination. Clearly they fuck up all the time in these kinds of situations. I mean Christ!! They gave the thing to Oppenheimer and he created the A-bomb!!!!!!! Idiots, eh?

The word redemption seems to be very misunderstood.

Turning in your old homies is different from telling police they ways in which gangs operate.

I think David Milgaard should be put to death for his crimes, too. I mean he never admitted his guilt either. There is no such thing a a mistake in jurisprudence... EVER.

I'll look for the article I found that in, although I read it a few days ago. As for his Nobel Peace Prize nominations, there's a huge difference between getting nominated and actually receiving one (although I'm not sure where you were going with that one).

As for the Milgaard analogy, DNA evidence conclusively proved his innocence, and I'd like to point out that I stated that I am against the death penalty. My point was that Tookie has not taken all the opportunities offered him to show remorse or help the cause of ending gang violence.

[ollie]

"I didn't think it was ever about him claiming to be innocent" - And I don't think that I ever claimed innocence. But I do think this guy was more use alive than dead.

My mistake then. I took your following quote to mean that Tookie was wrongly convicted:

I think David Milgaard should be put to death for his crimes, too. I mean he never admitted his guilt either. There is no such thing a a mistake in jurisprudence... EVER.

[AdamH]

For the purposes of this debate I think its impossible to reach a conclusion about Tookie.

About the death penalty though there's much more to focus on.

here's a fascinating fact sheet about Death Penalty Convictions, and the relationship between race and conviction:

(from http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/FactSheet.pdf)

• 98% of the chief district attorneys in death penalty states are

white; only 1% are black. (Prof. Jeffrey Pokorak, Cornell Law

Review, 1998)

• A comprehensive study on the death penalty in North Carolina

found that the odds of receiving a death sentence rose by 3.5 times among those defendants whose victims were white. (Prof. Jack

Boger and Dr. Isaac Unah, University of North Carolina, 2001)

• A recent study in California found that those who killed whites were over 3 times more likely to be sentenced to death than those

who killed blacks and over 4 times more likely than those who killed Latinos. (Pierce & Radelet, Santa Clara Law Review 2005)

Since 1973, over 120 people have been

released from death row with evidence of

their innocence. (Staff Report, House

Judiciary Subcommittee on Civil &

Constitutional Rights, Oct. 1993, with

updates from DPIC).

In 2000, 8 inmates were freed from death row

and exonerated; in 2001 – 2002, another 9

were freed; and in 2003, 12 were exonerated.

In 2004, there were 6 exonerations.

The California death penalty system costs taxpayers $114 million per year beyond the costs of keeping convicts locked up for life.

Taxpayers have paid more than $250 million for each of the state’s 11 executions. (L.A. Times, March 6, 2005)

• In Kansas, the costs of capital cases are 70% more expensive than comparable non-capital cases, including the costs of incarceration.

(Kansas Performance Audit Report, December 2003).

• In Indiana, the total costs of the death penalty exceed the complete costs of life without parole sentences by about 38%, assuming

that 20% of death sentences are overturned and reduced to life. (Indiana Criminal Law Study Commission, January 10, 2002).

• The most comprehensive study in the country found that the death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million per execution over the

costs of sentencing murderers to life imprisonment. The majority of those costs occur at the trial level. (Duke University, May 1993).

• Enforcing the death penalty costs Florida $51 million a year above what it would cost to punish all first-degree murderers with life in

prison without parole. Based on the 44 executions Florida had carried out since 1976, that amounts to a cost of $24 million for each

execution. (Palm Beach Post, January 4, 2000).

• In Texas, a death penalty case costs an average of $2.3 million, about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at

the highest security level for 40 years. (Dallas Morning News, March 8, 1992).

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It is an ugly side of poeple that comes out 20 years after the fact when they still scream "Kill".

As opposed to becoming so vehemently interested in this case a day after it's too late? It's also pretty ugly when people kill 4 other people with a shotgun.

And I'm just curious if you were present at the trial or are privy to all the court documents, perhaps you were a judge in the case?

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[AdamH]

I don't want to make light of execution, but here's a link to last meals and final comments from those who've been executed:

http://www.deadmaneating.com/2004Dining.pdf

[Thorgnor]

Read Polk's articles there and you should understand what I'm getting at instead of being personnally offended by your own opinion's. More murder clears up prior murders? Get it straight before you accuse me of a temper tantrum. Besides, how do you know that I care about Tookie. Maybe I was interested to hear what kind of bullshit would come out from a post like the one that I made. And it was interesting to hear what you had to say.

Curious though. Do you think we should now nuke Germany based on the holocaust?

BTW, what's so ugly about interest in injustice? Timing?

Edited December 13, 2005 by Guest

[AD]

Read Polk's articles there and you should understand what I'm getting at instead of being personnally offended by your own opinion's.

I'm not offended by my own opinion's (sic).

More murder clears up prior murders? Get it straight before you accuse me of a temper tantrum.

The death penalty is murder in your eyes, but not to the criminal justice system in California, that's all that's relevant here. The punishment that was deemed appropriate for the crime he was guilty of was carried out. I have it straight.

And it was interesting to hear what you had to say.

Curious though. Do you think we should now nuke Germany based on the holocaust?

I was interested in what you had to say until I read that last sentence. Apples and oranges, and a total anachronism.

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[AdamH]

Again, maintaining my mostly neutral stance, may I point you to the logs from the same Death Row site that give more detail about the 2005 executions:

(http://www.deadmaneating.com/dmearch.html)

SOUTH CAROLINA LAST MEAL

SHAWN PAUL HUMPHRIES

December 2, 2005

...Humphries would have preferred to have been the 1,000th person executed...

Last Meal: Humphries requested a McDonald's hamburger, french fries, broccoli and cheese, oat cereal, and a Dr. Pepper.

The skinny: Humphries was put to death for the1994 murder of a store clerk.

More skinny: Humphries and accomplice Eddie Blackwell drank beer together for most of the day, then entered a Max-Saver convenience store with the intention of robbing the store. The owner of the store, asked Humphries whether he wanted anything. Humphries flashed a gun he had stolen the night before and replied he wanted money. There was some evidence to suggest the man then reached under the counter to get a gun. When he reached under the counter, Humphries fired a shot in the man's direction and fled from the store. The bullet fired by Humphries struck the owner in the head, killing him. Blackwell slumped to the ground in the store and was arrested. Humphies was apprehended later that day and immediately confessed. The crime was captured on videotape.

Blackwell was also convicted of murder, and sentenced to life imprisonment.

Leading up to: Humphries' lawyer said that he would have preferred to have been the 1,000th person executed nationwide since the death penalty was reinstated, so that his death would be a milestone. "In his view, No. 1,000 is sort of a landmark," the lawyer said.

Humphries requested permission to watch "The Wizard of Oz" and was given a TV and VCR, his lawyer brought him the videotape Friday morning. Officials said he played the tape, though he spent much of the time talking to family and friends on the phone and eating a last meal including a McDonald's hamburger and a Dr. Pepper.

Last words and such: Before the curtains opened at 6:03 p.m., the victim's widow looked toward other family members and whispered "I can't do it," and walked out of the viewing area without witnessing her husband's killer be put to death.

Then Humphries' attorney read a one-and-a-half-page handwritten statement from the death chamber before the execution in which Humphries apologized for the killing and used Bible verses to criticize the death penalty. "I hope that my execution brings the Smith family some peace," he wrote. "But now I want to say something to everyone who supports this or any execution. We are all sinners, so what gives you the right as a sinner to take away a gift that God gave?"

At the end of the statement, Humphries looked toward the victim's sisters and mouthed "I'm sorry." One sister nodded in response. It appeared that a tear rolled down Humphries' cheek after the exchange.

Factoids: Humphries was the...

57th murderer executed in U.S. in 2005

1001st murderer executed in U.S. since 1976

3rd murderer executed in South Carolina in 2005

35th murderer executed in South Carolina since 1976

[questcequecest?]

i find it interesting that in 2005, there were 15 requests for fried chicken as a last meal, but only 2 requests for hot sauce.

thanks for the read polkaroo... a little depressing reading through it though.

[Thorgnor]

The only thing I'm getting from your posts is a cramped stomach.

I am not a supporter of Hitler, how could one be. But how is the debate different other than on a mass scale. I understand Anachronism to be events repeating themselves through time. What have I perpetuated? Debate?

"The death penalty is murder in your eyes, but not to the criminal justice system in California, that's all that's relevant here. The punishment that was deemed appropriate for the crime he was guilty of was carried out. I have it straight." - As always there straight shooter.

I can accept that were not Californian or even American, but I cannot accept that murder/putting to death is out of our range of discussion because of geography. Or that what they've done is right because of where they are.

And yes. Killing in any fashion is ugly. Way more ugly than typing.

[bradm]

The difference w.r.t. the holocaust is not just one of scale, it's one of category. You asked

Do you think we should now nuke Germany based on the holocaust?

Germany did not commit the atrocities of the holocaust in WW II, specific people did, and those specific individuals should be held accountable to the full extent of the law.

Aloha,

Brad

[TheGoodRev]

The only thing I'm getting from your posts is a cramped stomach.

I am not a supporter of Hitler, how could one be. But how is the debate different other than on a mass scale. I understand Anachronism to be events repeating themselves through time. What have I perpetuated? Debate?

"The death penalty is murder in your eyes, but not to the criminal justice system in California, that's all that's relevant here. The punishment that was deemed appropriate for the crime he was guilty of was carried out. I have it straight." - As always there straight shooter.

I can accept that were not Californian or even American, but I cannot accept that murder/putting to death is out of our range of discussion because of geography. Or that what they've done is right because of where they are.

And yes. Killing in any fashion is ugly. Way more ugly than typing.

With all due respect though, dude, you've changed your tune a little bit. We're all reacting to your earlier posts, ones like these:

"In addition, he was asked multiple times while in prison to aid law enforcement by providing insight into gang behaviour/communication, and never would." - Hartamaphone

Can you link me to the place where you found this info so that I can send it to nobel and they can revoke his nomination. Clearly they fuÇk up all the time in these kinds of situations. I mean Christ!! They gave the thing to Oppenheimer and he created the A-bomb!!!!!!! Idiots, eh?

The word redemption seems to be very misunderstood.

Turning in your old homies is different from telling police they ways in which gangs operate.

I think David Milgaard should be put to death for his crimes, too. I mean he never admitted his guilt either. There is no such thing a a mistake in jurisprudence... EVER.

...

Kill Mumia too. That oughta stop those blacks from thinking they can get away with all those bad things they do.

I hope I don't need a font to have people get it.

AD... you're right. Snoop is where I get my political advice for sure. You must get yours from Jimmy Swaggart.

...

Manson is still alive if I'm not mistaken and if he is dead the gov't didn't give him a death sentence and he's "just another gang-banger" as tube so eloquently put it...

No wait... he's not just another gang-banger!!!!! He's white!! Our mistake.

BTW, before becoming a mass murderer, Hitler reinvigorated an economy that had been demolished and held down for a generation and brought prosperity to a poeple who had been ghetto-ized by the rest of Europe. I don't think he weas nominated posthumously for the nobel.

As far as I can tell, nobody here is in favour of the death penalty, or at the very least, nobody is trying to argue your opposition to it. But a bunch of your earlier posts hinted that you were arguing for the guy's innocence, and that he was being punished because of his race. I don't deny that racism still exists in the justice system, but this guy was very likely guilty (of course none of us will ever know 100%).

Further, there is no comparison to Hitler or the Holocaust. May I remind you of Godwin's Law:

Godwin's Law (also Godwin's Rule of Nazi analogies) is an adage in Internet culture that was originated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states that:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.

Although the law does not specifically mention it, there is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.

[AD]

I understand Anachronism to be events repeating themselves through time.

No, that's not correct. I'm saying that you can't use an argument from 2005 to justify something that happened 50 years ago. Tookie had 26 years of appeals to prove his innocence. Why are we talking about the Holocaust again?

"The death penalty is murder in your eyes, but not to the criminal justice system in California, that's all that's relevant here. The punishment that was deemed appropriate for the crime he was guilty of was carried out. I have it straight." - As always there straight shooter.

So where did I have it wrong?

I cannot accept that murder/putting to death is out of our range of discussion because of geography. Or that what they've done is right because of where they are.

Well, if the same crime happened in Canada he wouldn't have been executed. So you can't accept it, but it's reality. My argument there wasn't based on geography, rather it was based on the circumstances of the case. It may not be right, I don't support the death penalty, but it's what happened because of the laws, checks and balances that the people of California are bound by.

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[TheGoodRev]

Well, if the same crime happened in Canada he wouldn't have been executed. So you can't accept it, but it's reality. My argument there wasn't based on geography, rather it was based on the circumstances of the case. It may not be right, I don't support the death penalty, but it's what happened because of the laws, checks and balances that the people of California are bound by.

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[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

May I remind you of Godwin's Law

. [Homer]Boy, is my face red![/Homer]. I think it's almost been a whole day for me :blush: .

[bouche]

Seriously, what is the compelling evidence that he did not commit the crime for which he was sentenced to death? Mistaken identity? Framed? What?

He maintained his innocence over the years. That's the compelling evidence. Isn't everyone in the joint innocent? I saw Shawshank Redemption...I know what it's like in the can

[Thorgnor]

Bradm - "The difference w.r.t. the holocaust is not just one of scale, it's one of category. You asked

* Thorgnor Said:

Do you think we should now nuke Germany based on the holocaust?

Germany did not commit the atrocities of the holocaust in WW II, specific people did, and those specific individuals should be held accountable to the full extent of the law."

Fair enough. I agree.

TGR - "As far as I can tell, nobody here is in favour of the death penalty, or at the very least, nobody is trying to argue your opposition to it. But a bunch of your earlier posts hinted that you were arguing for the guy's innocence, and that he was being punished because of his race. I don't deny that racism still exists in the justice system, but this guy was very likely guilty (of course none of us will ever know 100%)."

Again. I agree. And yes I was argueing that race plays a role. As for Godwin's Law... you can't remind me... never heard of it. Sounds pretty reasonable though. Which means that whoever mentioned Hitler's nomination for the Nobel was already fucking our shit up here.

AD - * Thorgnor Said:

I understand Anachronism to be events repeating themselves through time.

No, that's not correct. I'm saying that you can't use an argument from 2005 to justify something that happened 50 years ago. Tookie had 26 years of appeals to prove his innocence. Why are we talking about the Holocaust again?

* Thorgnor Said:

"The death penalty is murder in your eyes, but not to the criminal justice system in California, that's all that's relevant here. The punishment that was deemed appropriate for the crime he was guilty of was carried out. I have it straight." - As always there straight shooter.

So where did I have it wrong?

* Thorgnor Said:

I cannot accept that murder/putting to death is out of our range of discussion because of geography. Or that what they've done is right because of where they are.

Well, if the same crime happened in Canada he wouldn't have been executed. So you can't accept it, but it's reality. My argument there wasn't based on geography, rather it was based on the circumstances of the case. It may not be right, I don't support the death penalty, but it's what happened because of the laws, checks and balances that the people of California are bound by."

That isn't what anachronism means? When did I attempt to justify the holocaust. You had it wrong when you split my comments up. Geography has everything to do with jurisdiction and therefore with punishment. Morality however is static for people, it's inside of us, not on a map no matter who draws it... We may disagree on what is moral, but laws don't change the feelings. Your debate seems to be that that's how it is and that's what makes it proper. Cart before the horse in my opinion.

Besides... we both know that if we were talking about this in person we would probably agree 100%. This format makes for a lot of miscommunication.

[AD]

I'm not saying 'that's the way it is, so that's right,' I'm saying 'that's the way it is, it's not gonna help Tookie too much now.' The process, however flawed, was followed.

Agreed about the confusing medium for debate. I definitely agree with you that the death penalty is wrong. But again I'm not too upset when convicted killers get killed.

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