MoMack Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Just my contribution. I don't like getting span (unless there are naughty pictures). And passenger's emails get deleted. And I haven't seen them, and I've seen every other band going I think (could be coincidence). But as for it being simple to get off there mailing list. If you read advice about spam, its to block, not to reply and unsubscribe because that generally just means that someone is on the other end and they double their efforts. They've got a live one... So its not easy, and not acceptable.... I mean, I could see if they called eveyone on the phone and left a 30 second snipit of a good Franklin's jam, but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Freak Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 This is just a dude from Guelph who wants people to come out to see his band. He's not soliciting porn sites or fad diets. Aggreed, not a cool way to promote but I'm quite sure he's not looking for"live ones". I've dealt with Jim while working on FrontierTown issues and he's just a dude in a band-he's not an evil coniver out to screw us all with spam. I think there is a full moon a'comin'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Musicface Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 I dunno SF, personally I've never met the guy (as I bet is the case with most folks responding to this thread) so the only impression I have of him is that he sends me spam. Okay, fine, it's one guy in a band in Guelph, whatever. But hey, I want people to come see MY band too, so do tonnes of other folks on this board. If you started getting, say, one or two messages a month from every band that promotes through this board, it would start to add up, and probably start to piss you off at some point. It should be nipped in the bud. Nobody who sends spam wants anything other than for us to buy what they're selling. And that's fine, people have to feed their families or their habits or whatever. But let's not pretend these guys are any better or any worse than any other person or organization that sends spam, just 'cus they might be personally good guys. I'm sure lots of telemarketers are good people too, but I'll still hang up on the bastards! Spam sucks 'cus it makes an extremely useful tool - email - less and less useful 'cus there's so much crap to go through. I spend about a half hour to an hour a day deleting spam, honest to god. And my job requires a lot of email use, so I don't have much choice but to do it. Sure, Passenger isn't the cause off all the spam in the universe, but they are one source who are setting a bad precedent, that being that it's cool to use spam to promote your indie CanJam band. And here the community is saying, overwhelmingly from what I've read, "NO F*CKING WAY, MAN"! Well, good for the community. Communities should have standards of conduct, that's part of what makes them work. I think that's the only real point here, NOT whether they are a good band or good guys. Hey, I downloaded some Passenger songs a while back and I quite liked 'em, and if they're playing in Toronto on a night I'm free I might very well go see them. Peace, Mr. M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MK Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 People seem to be pretty united on the stance against band spam...the more I think about the more I see an unfortunate conundrum. In talking to a number of bar owners the one thing that becomes apparent is that in order for a band to exist as a gigging entity they need to promote themselves. The one thing I have told any band that I myself have booked is that they need to spend as much time marketing themselves as they do practising their actual music. Here we have Passenger looking for ways to get the word out, which in theory can do nothing but good and unforunatley is turning into nothing but bad vibes...I give Jim kudos for putting forth the effort and the innovation...nothing underhanded about it - he found the target market (everyone on the skank certainly would like his music) and is trying his best to get these ideal listeners out - I'd be proud rather than pissed...there's no way he's spamming an Avril board - maybe there's a method to his madness, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasyfizeek Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 MY 2 Cents..... stop the freakin' emails......bad karma is all it is. greasy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paisley Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 yup, unsolicited e-mail is annoying and is probably the only reason I haven't seen Passenger yet... Jim could easily just post a thread to let us know when the band is playing but I know I didn't sign up on their mailing list... that gives me the same feeling as when someone tries to tele-market me... no thanks... which is likely too bad for them as those who seem to know them like them... ya, its not that hard to ask to be taken off the list but I don't like e-mailing strangers and don't see why I should have to just had to complain Its a hamilton thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gentlemonkey Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 I received the said email with subject 'conman' .. wtf?! that was enough to inspire a 'remove' email from me. I have heard passenger, and they are really good! oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Musicface Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Mine was titled "muser" - seems like the subjects are generally an attempt to play on our Sanctuary names, although GM I don't know how they got "conman" from yours! But this lends credence to the idea that the emails were sucked off this board, or perhaps jamhub.ca which many of us also belong to under the same board names. - M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frescolopez Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Mc'Con'nery the conman - I think the new nickname will stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neroboy Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 I agree with MK! Way to be resourceful Jim, You gotta get the word out some how! Sign me up!!! neroboy@hotmail.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipin Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 I just use my Block Address feature for "Passanger's e-mail list".....And it only took me about 15 emails from them before I did it... Although I did hear they are a great band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Musicface Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 quote:Originally posted by MK: People seem to be pretty united on the stance against band spam...the more I think about the more I see an unfortunate conundrum. In talking to a number of bar owners the one thing that becomes apparent is that in order for a band to exist as a gigging entity they need to promote themselves. The one thing I have told any band that I myself have booked is that they need to spend as much time marketing themselves as they do practising their actual music. Here we have Passenger looking for ways to get the word out, which in theory can do nothing but good and unforunatley is turning into nothing but bad vibes...I give Jim kudos for putting forth the effort and the innovation...nothing underhanded about it - he found the target market (everyone on the skank certainly would like his music) and is trying his best to get these ideal listeners out - I'd be proud rather than pissed...there's no way he's spamming an Avril board - maybe there's a method to his madness, no?Here's the problem with this logic... let me tell you all the things that I have received spam for off the top of my head: spam about concerts in Buffalo 'cus I once bought concert tickets for Buffalo shows onlinespam about cheap domain names 'cus I've registered domain names in the pastspam about charities 'cus I've given to charity onlinespam about gambling 'cus I signed up for a free trial on a gaming site oncespam from bands playing all over the States and Canada 'cus I'm on a couple of boards related to music that are variously run out of Nashville, Vancouver, etc.spam about cheap software and books and just about anything I've ever purchased onlineand so on. The point is, if you say "well, you're on this board so obviously you're interested in jam music, so obviously you don't mind one or two little emails now and then about a good band." Great, but to me part of the point of being on this board is that the information here is mostly in and around my interest in jam music, and for the most part I want to keep this separate from my email that I need for business and personal communications with people I actually know. IMPORTANT POINT: What Passenger is doing is NOT innovative. Does it take some time and energy to do, sure. But folks have been stealing email addresses off bulletin boards and newsgroups for years and years, that's why so many of us that actually use the Internet in the way it was intended are now inundated with tonnes of electronic crap we never asked for. And I often hear people say "well, it doesn't cost you any money, and it doesn't waste trees like junk mail, so what's the problem?" I'll tell you the problem 'cus I work in systems at a university - there is a huge amount of time and energy put into fighting this spam problem that should be going elsewhere. Probably hundreds of thousands of dollars will be spent in the next year in fighting spam at my school, and that ultimately comes out of student tuitions and all our taxes. For instance (no offense to anyone in nero 'cus ya all know I adore nero, I will come see you guys as often as I can) if nero starts thinking "hey, this is a great idea and a great way to promote our band", you're gonna set a bad, BAD president for up and coming bands who want to be like nero 'cus you guys are so cool. "Oh, if nero's doing it, we GOTTA do it to!" And then we'll all start getting tonnes of spam from tonnes of possibly marginal bands who we may or may not care about, and it gets out of control. Sound far fetched? Maybe, but that's how spam starts, just like graffiti or trash. Same psychology. One day you've got a nice clean park, next year you've got a shithole 'cus a few people thought it was cool to leave their trash and everybody followed suit. Again, I'm not ragging on Passenger as musicians or people, I'm saying spam is an activity we as a community should be saying NO to. Period. Peace, Mr. M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Musicface Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 quote: Originally posted by MK: (everyone on the skank certainly would like his music) As an aside, this is an unfair generalization - just 'cus it's "jam" music does not mean everyone here will like it. I just wanted to make that point before somebody like Kung reads this thread and really goes to town! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reba Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 this is such a fun little debate to read .......much more so than the trite shit that kung tries to get going. no spam for meeeee, pleease Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MK Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Spam is harmless. Would you be as irrate if Jim verbally told you about his gigs because he wasted the precious 10 seconds of your time that it took to listen to him? His spamming is innovative because no one else is doing it. The fact that "hunderds of thousand of dollars being spent to fight spam" has absolutley nothing to do with this. I even think 'spam' is a harsh word in this case - more like 'updates' - he's not trying to sell you anything. There is a 95% chance that everyone on the Skank would like his music. I would like to invite Kung to come to town on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Musicface Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Hey MK et al. Before this response, I'd like to say this is a fun and interesting debate for me, 'cus it touches on two things I think about a lot - appropriate uses of the Internet, and music promotion. I hope all my posts are taken in that spirit, and that appreciate that people are engaging in some intelligent conversation on this. One of the many reasons I like it here among the skanks! quote: Spam is harmless. Would you be as irrate if Jim verbally told you about his gigs because he wasted the precious 10 seconds of your time that it took to listen to him? If I ran into Jim at another show or party and was having a conversation with him and he wanted tell me about his band, no, absolutely not, that's completely cool. If he came to my office or house and knocked on the door, or cold-called me on the phone and said "hi I'm Jim, I'd like to take a few seconds to tell you about my band", then he's just like any other door-to-door salesman or telemarketer in my mind. quote: His spamming is innovative because no one else is doing it. I guess you don't get as much email as some people here. I've received spam from dozens of bands. Maybe they didn't get my name off the Sanctuary, so I guess that part is "innovative". But if "spam" is a strong word for it (see your next point), than "innovative" is a SUPER-STRONG word for it! quote: The fact that "hunderds of thousand of dollars being spent to fight spam" has absolutley nothing to do with this. I even think 'spam' is a harsh word in this case - more like 'updates' - he's not trying to sell you anything. Wait a sec, in your previous post, you wrote: "In talking to a number of bar owners... for a band to exist as a gigging entity they need to promote themselves. ...I have told any band... they need to spend as much time marketing themselves as they do practising their actual music." How you can you say that in one post, and then say "he's not trying to sell you anything" in another? Of course he is! I'm betting his CDs aren't free, I bet most of his gigs have a cover, and I bet those bar owners that are booking him aren't giving away drinks and food. It's ALL about selling, and as somebody who has booked bands you should know that as well as anybody. quote: There is a 95% chance that everyone on the Skank would like his music. Maybe true, but then there's one in 20 of the people you're sending mail to that you're just pissing off. If I pissed off one in every 20 of the people I met, I'd be considered much less lovable than I am! quote: I would like to invite Kung to come to town on this one Me too actually! I personally love his posts. The point in all this is, once again, what are we as a community gonna accept. "Spam" is called that because of the repetition and volume factor (from the old "spam spam spam" Monty Python skit for anyone reading along who doesn't know the origin - a little geek trivia there.) Sure, the Passenger messages on their own might not constitute spam if you don't get much email, but for those of us who get 200-300 email messages a day, and find lately maybe 10-15% of those are ones we actually asked for or needed to get, it's just part of the noise. And I'll say it again 'cus I think people still think I'm anti-Passenger - I've downloaded some Passenger, I have nothing against Passenger, I'd probably go to see Passenger if it fit into my schedule sometime. But let me read it off the Watchtower, or off a post in the Sanctuary, or from a friend who's going to show, etc. Let's not allow the online part of community to be turned into another source of digital noise like so much of the Internet sadly has. - M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MK Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Mr. MF - I'm enjoying the debate too, I don't pipe up too often - only when I think I have a qualified opinion. This whole Passenger thing is quite amusing. The company I work for has a chain of three papers and every single employee at all three papers gets the Passenger emails - he must have gone through the mastheads/websites...the thing that sucks is that all these other employees forward the emails on to me because the gigs pertain to my region so, all in all, I probably get the email about 15 times (I even get it at 2 different addresses). I don't mind though - the band kicks and I think he's doing a great job of promotion. Is the band email spam? I don't think in this case anything is being sold hard. He just wants you to hear his music - not buy it. I don't think there has ever been a cover charge at one of their shows that I've seen. I've never seen a band email say: "check out the pitcher & wings special and buy our CD." It's a consumer society and the oppurtunity to buy things surrounds us everywhere, all the time - is the skank selling me on internet shopping because it gets me in front of the computer? Band mailers do put you in an environment of spending (which I always will do) but in no way are suggesting you support them by spending money - only by listening to their tunes. Bar owners know that if people are in their bar they will spend money - that's the nature of the drug... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Musicface Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Hey there! Defining spam is very hard, but I think it's worth reading the Canadian Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial Email (CAUCE) FAQ: http://cauce.ca/faq.html Their main focus is on "unsolicited commercial email". They talk a lot about the costs and such there, so you can see some real stats if you're interested. Since Passenger is inviting you to come see them in (presumably) a bar where you're meant to (presumably) buy drinks, that's promotion of a commercial enterprise. If you're saying "Jim just wants you to come hear him play", I'd say fine but I'd ask the bar owners that booked him if it's okay if I bring 50 people to his next gig just to listen and not buy any drinks or food, if that would be cool with them. Wanna bet Jim wouldn't have his gig the next week? Passenger is a promotional tool for the bar to get people in there to drink. That's ultimately all any bands are to bars, so the emails that Jim is sending are meant to increase his value as their promotion tool, whether he sees it that way or not 'cus it's the reason he continues to get gigs which is what he wants, of course. There's no way you argue that's not true on one hand, and yet argue on the other hand that bar owners tell bands they have to promote themselves and say that's a good thing. Anyway, if calling it spam is strong, fine. Sending unsolicited email messages costs me time and costs my employer money, even if it's sent by the nicest guy with the best of intentions. Other bands should be discouraged from being part of the problem. Peace, - Mr. M. P.S. MK, if you or any of your colleagues at the papers or, indeed, anyone reading this thread would like to be on MY band's email list, go here: http://www.musicface.com/uncleseth/comm/list.html and fill out the form, indicating that you want to be on the list. We'd be extremely happy to have you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcO Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 Real interesting debate. I'd like to see it develop but would just step in to point out that if anyone is unclear as to what kind of response spam mail gets - no matter what it's about - just go back to Brian's ("hamilton") first post initiating this thread. Here's a guy with no opinion good or bad on the band's music but he's already got an unfavourable (is that a word, Brian? ) impression of how they go about their business. To the point where he's moved to let it be publicly known he's put off about it. You can imagine that his one post of displeasure must represent numerous people who just weren't inclined to start the debate. You may find the band's spamming (let's call it what it is) harmless or innovative - that's a legitimate opinion - but it seems a bit foolish to me to consider using a means of promotion that has real potential to leave a negative impression on the recipient. If there's real pride about the music - and let me say here I have never heard Passenger but probably will one day - using the means of communication that fly-by-night credit companies and pornography peddlars use may degrade the value of what you have to offer. Sure you *can* do something but you can always choose not to. Off to Dundas to see the acoustic Fat Cats.... later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swifty Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 Ahhhhhh fucking relax people! If these emails truly bother you, you have a problem. If you ask me I think whoever it was from Passenger that got the emails from this board was pretty resourceful. You guys and girls complaining are a fucking joke! waaaaaa! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kung Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 (sound of knuckles cracking) This debate also engages me in at least a few areas I'm interested in namely event promotion, niche or viral marketing and most importantly hippy baiting. I also get the Passenger emails but got them at my northernheads email, and editor, and abe, and hellfire. But I would get a ton of shit from all sorts of bands as we'd promote certain dates and make people aware of when one band or another were coming east- so we anticipated and appreciated it in those cases. I did notice that we'd get emails from people doing random searches finding the website then going to the contact page, or spider and bot programs would just cull every email address associated with the website so we'd get emails that were being sent to hellfire@zeta.com, hellfire@euroteens.com etc. Basically as soon as you open the door of any 'business' like say a bar or restaurant people then see you as a customer as well, food and liquor suppliers, weekly magazines, charities soliciting donations. An email address, especially in a niche community, is sort of analogous I'm suggesting- you've identified yourself publicly somewhere as interested in a particular type of music, events or scene. These names then could and likely should be culled by a resourceful person. It often seems that our culture is alot more diffuse then we think with alot of people in our online community being centred in certain areas like for instance Ottawa. People seem to come out from underneath rocks and then scurry off in the night and I wonder if we don't keep well enough in touch with these people even with resources like the Watchtower, Jamhub, Pollstar etc. I really don't think alot of these people spend much time in front of or have access to computers. They most likely check their email periodically though in between stints of treeplanting and organic farming. Now emailing someone in Ottawa about a show in Guelph is not very useful but emailing someone in Brantford or Kitchener wouldn't be. If anything it would be best if the artist/promoter consolidates a bunch of upcoming dates and limits the number of emails going out. So I don't really have much of a problem with it. When Abe and I first started NorthernHeads we set up a little beta test site at an anonymous FTP address, culled names from a bunch of places, bands, websites, our own emails and created a master list called Head Count. I hadn't really thought about it all in ages but it was a good idea that should be pursued again. Basically we were trying to get a clean list with only 'heads' or likely heads in order to perhaps get a real sense of the size of the national community- again bigger and more diffuse then any of us might realize given that we're kind of cliquey and incestuous. We offered people an option to opt out and in the process got our first audience for the site and feedback before we registered the url and such. There are broader privacy issues I don't want to neglect but I don't know if a strict opt in is essential in this case. We're talking about a niche vertical market with a very narrow spectrum so that it would be advantageous for everyone to have such a master list provided it could be used effectively and properly. I seem to recall Grand Theft Bus for instance hesitating but then giving us all the emails they had to date. Jimmy Swift on the other hand chose not to and I could see where they see it a 'proprietary' and an asset of some sort given the investment they've made penetrating college markets (no freudian slip intended). So it becomes more an issue of vested interests wanting to retain their intellectual property if you like, Jambands wants their list for Come Together or something else they care about, JSB for their shows, Jamhub for BB's and Funguys. Oh yeah but it's all about the scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimoe Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 I like Passenger and I'm generally interested in knowing their weekly gigging whereabouts. Anyone who has a problem with Passenger's emails should really be thanking their lucky stars that they're not getting hundreds of weekly email touring updates from bands such as Creed, Nickelback and Blue Grassy High. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Musicface Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 Kung, I agree with a lot of what you've said. My opinion is if you want to have a more appropriate scenario, you could maybe have a one time thing where people have the opportunity to opt in. For instance, if the guys from Passenger or whatever band had sent out a message to all the skanks who they could find email address for saying "hey we're this band, we noticed you're on jambands.ca, we think you might like us, and if you'd like we could send you messages. Please reply to this if you'd like 'em, otherwise we won't bug you again." Personally I'll more cool with that sort of thing, although there are probably folks out there that would still not like that. But I'd see that as being a fair compromise between good promotional practice as MK and others are talking about, and being just like every other source of spam. BTW, thanks to everyone who has signed up for the Uncle Seth mailing list as a result of this thread. Please note, your emails addresses will not be shared with other lists… well except Jaimoe, who is now also signed up to the Official Blue Grassy High Hourly Update and Naked Mandolin Player Picture Mailing List. Enjoy bro! Peace, Mr. M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jared Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 can't we all just get along Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamilton Posted July 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 quote: Originally posted by MarcO: Here's a guy with no opinion good or bad on the band's music but he's already got an unfavourable (is that a word, Brian? )... 'Unfavourable' is indeed a word (of course, don't tell the Americans that - they'll tell you it's 'unfavorable'). Congratulations - you have passed Mr. Hamilton's English Writing 1A1 class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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