Animals are being murdered

[cheesehead]

Alright look, even if you hate my guts, look past it for a second. I don't know how many of you are aware of this, but there was just a massive bear hunt in New Jersey this weekend where almost 400 bears were killed in an attempt to control the population. Irrespective of the wildlife marshall's lies, this is just plain murder. It is disgusting, and anyone who shows such a blatant disregard for animal life needs to face more than a bunch of sign wielding protestors on the killing grounds.

For those of you who listen to Q107 in Toronto, you will be familiar with Joanne Wilder. You may or may not know that she recently held a poll to bring justice to those who have been convicted of animal cruelty. Please check out www.q107.com in the coming weeks to see if you can help us out.

I posted a message here because I know that even if you really hate me, most of you are probably compassionate enough to realise this is a serious issue. If you don't believe in animal rights, don't respond to this thread. And don't turn it into another "fuck cheesehead" chain of hatred, ok?

if you really care, post a reply, or email me at sanderskoivu@yahoo.com

Thanks.

[cheesehead]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031214/us_nm/life_bears_dc

Above is the URL if you want to read.

[Vermontdave]

Hey Cheesehead

Why are there bear in suburban NJ?

[cheesehead]

The Delaware water gap national recreation area is home to around 3,000 black bears. Evidently in the past 50 years or so, a few homes have been broken into by bears.

I see, so this is grounds for murder? Kudos to New Jersey for revoking hunting permits from 10-15 year olds. 10 year olds. Hunting bears. Because a few windows were smashed.

Absolutely horrific.

This was what the Judge ruled:

"it is also significant that the limited six-day hunt is not designed to eradicate or even significantly reduce the black bear population. As defendants note, "[c]ontrary to [p]laintiffs' alarmist predictions, the black bear population at the [Recreation Area] is not going to be decimated, or even significantly impacted, by this bear hunt." . . . Thus, "plaintiffs' aesthetic, spiritual, and cultural interests in observing, photographing, studying, and appreciating bears in the Recreation Area . . . [will not be irreparably injured]"

Oh I get it. We want bears to stick around because we want to study and appreciate them? How about because they are living fucking creatures. Now, because we are doing everything except erradicate the entire population, killing just a few is ok? Hunting for sport is barbaric. Hunting for food? Essential for some people, yes.

But Hunting just for the sake of killing?

My god.

[theDrew]

mannnn

thats a lot of friggin bears for that tiny little state,

i assume NJ is growing like mad, urban sprawl if you will, when people take up bear habitat the bears migrate out of the area, thus you have more bears taking up the same amount of wilderness, thus competing for the same small amount of resources, this means many bears will just die anyways due to starvation, or they just won't be healthy enough to make it thru the winter. And when bears do start ruining people's shit repeatedly, you gotta start to worry, a bear that will break into somebody's house is a very dangerous, desperate bear. If i was a parent and this was happening, i'd shoot bears too, out of fear that they would mangle my children. in a situation like this you gotta think, who do you care about more, people or bears??

you won't see this happen in ontario, why? because bears have a massive habitat in places like northern ontario without any human interaction. and when a bear does happen to wander into a town, it is a good idea to shoot it, why? because that bear has probably become to comfortable around people - a very dangerous bear. the people of new jersey are forced to deal with this problem, you can't just relocate a few hundred bears to the middle of minnesota or something

[Tooly]

they should just move the bears to where there is more room,, they have the transportation available, its just cheaper and funner they think to kill em

my 2 cents

ps thats a heap of bears for joisey

[cheesehead]

There is no evidence of urban sprawl in New Jersey. In fact, if this were the issue, they would no doubt have to clear it with wildlife regulations (you cannot go around destroying known habitats, let alone murdering the animals themselves). Even if this were the case, I do not see a hint of legitimacy in killing bears because the population is growing (which it isn't). Who do we care more about, people or bears, you ask? Are the bears an immediate threat? They haven't done one of these bear hunts in thirty years. Now all of a sudden there is such danger in them living in a nearby park? Protecting your kids of course is a priority, but you don't steamroll over species in the process.

I'm not entirely familiar with the layout of New Jersey, or the exact location of the park. However, there should be a viable solution that comes before killing. Building a boundary to keep the animals away from the people is a possibility. The competition for resources is there anyway. Unless the bears are eating the people, there's no advantage to them having access to the town anyway. Let them settle it in their own environment. Don't slaughter the poor animals to make it quicker. Relocation is another.

[Chewie]

just as an aside...i worked with joanne in st catharines. she is very motivated, intelligent and passionate about her ideals. plus she is a pretty cool person.

and she's not bad to look at.

[bONES]

what about a new McBear Burger...or Kentucky Fried Bear (crispy or regular), or they could just make a whole bunch of bear fur coats!!

people don't wear enough fur coats these days

i think smelly would look smashing in one of these

[long time runnin']

I am all for animal rights, but I don't see how this is any different than hunting moose, deer, or any other animals. Whether or not we agree with it, such hunting is legal, and tightly regulated. Hunting liscences and permits are given based on populations, which are closely monitored.

If a bear population gets too high, what should we do? Let it keep going, until our streets are regularly visited by bears, scaring the hell out of people and putting them at risk? If there were no humans, the amount of food available in the bush would eventually limit numbers, so the bears would die off on their own for lack of food. However, when numbers get high with people around, the bears run out of food in the bush and head for dumpsters in the city. Do we want to look out our back windows and see bears near where our children play? As a species that is far from endangered, I believe controlled hunting is justified for bears, as it is for other species

Even in northern Ontario, where the spring bear hunt was cancelled a few years back, bears are becoming a serious problem in cities. What happened? After relocation attempts all failed, the bears were shot by officials anyway. Cheesehead, I understand and respect your empathy, but sadly, hunting is a way of life for many. I don't do it, nor will I ever. Still, it's legal, and, in my opinion, a far better way to get meat and fur than buying it from a system that raises these animals in institutionalized squalor.

[cheesehead]

Ok, Momack, point well taken, but we aren't concerning ourselves here with the natural order of life. I understand all this Darwinian flimflam about life being survival of the fittest and whatnot, but as you said, morally, we have a right to do absolutely everything in our power to preserve the animals who don't threaten ouur survival. Do you not find this to be horribly unethical?

They aren't eating the bears to stay alive. And they aren't protecting themselves from an immediate threat, as aforementioned. You cannot call this self defense. Moreover, the mere fact that this has been going on so long says they were doing something right for the past 29 years. The bear population can be regulated in other ways, aside from killing.

I know you don't like me very much, and you'll take my hippy bullshit for little value, but bears are wonderful, beautiful animals. We are lucky to share the planet with them.

p.s - maybe i'll see you again out on the rink for some intramural puck. you play for law, right?

[MoMack]

I did play for law. I'm out of Kingston after today. How did you know? Did we play you?

but... I wasn't expressing an opinion one way or another on the bear hunt. Just expressing the reality of the situation of humans being the top of the chain. You can't liken controlling a bear population to controlling human population through similar means.

[arcane]

"You must be this tall to ride on the band wagon."

Bears are cool, no doubt about that, but so is hearing both sides of an argument before favouring one.

If you like, you can rationalize my position by saying that I hate you, but it wouldn't be true. No, hating you would require energy that I could otherwise spend on sleeping or picking zits in the mirror.

(Stapes, you are too funny!)

[cheesehead]

I'm sorry, i didn't know that being opposed to killing bears was a bandwagon. Forgive me for loving animals. I'll start to support more of an unfashionable cause.

And I've heard both sides of the story. I've read the literature, and researched this hunt thoroughly.

And I still oppose it.

You're free to post on this thread of course, but you might want to consider saving the sarcasm for a more appropriate time.

There is absolutely nothing funny about this.

[MarcO]

http://www.jambands.ca/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=010032

[long time runnin']

I've heard it described as the "Walt Disney" effect. The will to support the animals which are personified on Disney movies: the ones that are cute and fluffy. This, at the expense of the less adorable, though just as vital species. Fish and reptiles, not to mention insects and nematodes, get the short end of the stick, even though they often make up the lower, essential parts of an ecosystem.

Anyway, here's your cute and fluffy:

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_827153.html

This one's just poetic justice

http://www.adn.com/front/story/4110831p-4127072c.html

[paisley]

not so cute and cuddly grizzlies endangered in Alberta

I doubt grizzlies are very good eatin, just sport hunting for a big manly testosterone rush... less than 400 grizzlies left in alberta

black bears aren't really that cuddly when you get up close to one in the wild... unless having all the hair on the back of your head stand up in fear makes you feel all warm and mushy

deforestation leads to less habitat that can provide for less bears... pretty simple math... if they aren't killed by hunters they will over-exhaust their food supplies and end up starving to death... nature doesn't fuck around

[SevenSeasJim]

Quote: "Thats just silly. Seriously. The food chain is the food chain. We're at the top. We should preserve what we can. We are more important then any living creature because we can be. We have a moral obligation and duty that goes with it, but hey, its reality. No wishywashy hippy shit here.

Think about it like this. NYE show, you have a ticket. Why are you any more entitled to the show then anyone else? Because you can be, you've got the means (the ticket). But you have a moral obligation to try and help your friends get in... Or we could just kill half the population and make it easier to find tickets."

Momack, it's nice that you can compare the senseless killing of living beings to having New Years Eve tickets (you'll make a perfect Defence Lawyer some day with that rationale). I love the people who bait bears the most. You know, put some fresh meat in a can until the bear shows up and then you can shoot it in the back from your hiding spot up in the tree. That's fucking fantastic. Thankfully we can do this because we are at the top of the food chain.

Another great example of man being man:

The recently finished Hwy400 extention into Parry Sound was built right through a endangered Massassauga rattle snake nesting ground. At least they put up 2 foot high garbage bag fence's to keep them off the road.

P.S. I had a great cheeseburger for lunch.

[rubberdinghy]

There`s plenty of room for all God's creatures.

Right next to the mashed potatoes!

{ducking to miss anything that`s thrown at me!}

Just my 2¢

[MarcO]

Any of you ever eaten a mailman?

Mmmmmm.......

[Freeker]

I think we're all missing the point of this thread...Isn't Cheesehead a total fucking tool or something, it's hazy but I remember some seriuosly fucked up shit that went down...Call me petty but can't people go back to yelling at him and threatening him....that shit was hilarious

did the guy ever apologize, for that matter did he ever paid what he owed?

[fluffhead77]

STAPES!!

you are the funniest cat here. Bearcat that is!

BHAHAHAHAHAH

are you coming to T.O. this weeknd??

[cheesehead]

For anyone that legitimately cares about this, I spoke to Ms.Wilder this morning and she said that because this is an american issue, there is little that can be done from here.

But she was polite and empathetic, as i figured she would be.

[Freeker]

Hey I care! I love Bears...Ditka rules, GO BEARS!!

[Esau]

quote:

---

Originally posted by FreekerByTheSpeaker:

I think we're all missing the point of this thread...Isn't Cheesehead a total fucking tool or something, it's hazy but I remember some seriuosly fucked up shit that went down...Call me petty but can't people go back to yelling at him and threatening him....that shit was hilarious

did the guy ever apologize, for that matter did he ever paid what he owed?

---

Isn't that childish drama for the another site?Lets figure this,obviously it had nothing to do with you or you would know if he paid back whatever or apologised for whatever,so if anyone is going to start this childish crap up again then wouldn't you think it should be the folks it pertains to?Give me a break & grow up.

As for the bear hunt,I am sorta borderline with this issue,cheesehead says he did his "research" into this then fine,I would really like to see more info posted since I have about 50 pages of literature on this issue,being that I am a memeber ofThe Friends of the Bruce District Parks Association and get regular updates about this issue.

First,the issues are american that are posted,not that it decreases the importance but there is a whole different set of laws,regulations etc etc in the US pertaining to bear hunting.

Second I am really opposed to the spring bear hunt(which I is now banned here in Ontario as of January 14,1999,but is also under review for possible reinstatement ),mainly because the bears are fatigued,hungry(which makes for easy pickin's,also most are baited by leaveing food out for them while hunters are perched above in tree stands(thats fair eh?) and mostly because in the spring they have offspring with them,unfortunatley not all legal bear hunters restrict themselves to shooting male bears which then causes not only one female bear to die but usually two young cubs also(somtimes three)" that killing bears in spring had orphaned about 270 bear cubs per year, few of whom survived",to me that isn't right.

According to Canadian Press, “Ontario, with 75,000 to 100,000 bears, has one of the largest bear populations in North America. Its rugged north has become a haven for hunters eager to display bear heads over their fireplace mantles. The spring bear hunt, when bears are weak from hunger, is popular among many affluent U.S. hunters, who are offered guarantees that they will not return home without a trophy.”

About 8,000 bears have been killed per year in Ontario during the past decade––4,000 during the spring season(30% females), 4,000 in fall. Of the spring toll,1,200 bears wounded. about 75% were killed by U.S. visitors.

The even extended the fall bear hunting season by two weeks.Two weeks after the Ontario ban, British Columbia environment minister Cathy McGregor also risked hunter wrath, closing spring grizzly bear hunts in four areas where the bears are deemed especially vulnerable.

A British Columbia environment ministry spokesperson reportedly attributed McGregor’s action in part to the influence of a dossier entitled Trigger Happy, published in September 1998 by the British-based Environmental Investigation Agency. In it, the EIA accused the B.C. government of in effect “managing” grizzly bears to extinction.

'No Correlation' Between Spring Bear Hunt and Nuisance Bears: Selective Leaks Give False and Misleading View of Panel Findings, Clash With Liberal Party promises.

As for the New Jersey bear hunt,the numbers are disputable,but they are there folks,heres a good link:

New Jersey Plan to Lift Bear-Hunt Ban Spurs Protests

But don't mistake my opposition to this as me being anti-hunting,I myself do not need to hunt since I live in the city,but after a great trip through the Yukon,NWT & Nunavut I have learned alot more about it.Hunting for food is not bad in my eyes,but hunting for sport is wrong to me.

I have eaten black bear,brown bear and grizzly bear,all of which taste the same,only effect of taste difference is the enviroment they live in and the food they eat,adding in the fact that in some areas of Canada/USA some bears have to travel alot more to substain themselves for the winter,resulting in tougher meat.

I am now a vegatarian because of a health condition,but by no means do I feel that eating meat is wrong,but killing for sport is sick.

Thats my freakin ramble on this subject,if its hard to get my point then my apologys,10 hours hard labour,three beers and a few joints will do that to ya.

All I really want to see is NO SPRING BEAR HUNT!!

Theres no proof,in fact its been proven it doesn't help that sport killing aids in "bear management of nuisance bears" or numbers.

When 30% of 4000 bears are female that are killed during the spring,imagine how many leave behind young cubs that are unable to feed or substain thenselves,then add that number to the 4000 and see what the effects are.

Think about it this way if you are a hunter:

Could you,in good conscious,admire and be proud of your female "trophy bear head" above the fire place or wherever in your home knowing that you also,probally killed her young?

Just my thoughts on bear hunting.