Fate of Can Jam?

[cANDYmAN]

My longest haul...

With Slammin Jack, we played Wild Bill's in Banff, tore down, packed up, and hit the road after the show (Tue 4:20AM). We had a small tv and a playstation so we set up a season in NHL 2003 and all drafted our own teams... good times! 60ish hours (5385 kms) later and half way through the regular season, we rolled into Halifax in time for the Attic show (Fri).

We did stop once in Thunder Bay for breakfast.

I'''''''ve never been the same since!

Rich

Edited August 17, 2006 by Guest

[bouche]

My longest haul...

With Slammin Jack, we played Wild Bill's in Banff, tore down, packed up, and hit the road after the show (Tue 4:20AM). We had a small tv and a playstation so we set up a season in NHL 2003 and all drafted our own teams... good times! 60ish hours (5385 kms) later and half way through the regular season, we rolled into Halifax in time for the Attic show (Fri).

We did stop once in Thunder Bay for breakfast.

I'''''''ve never been the same since!

Rich

that's gold.

[cANDYmAN]

The only comments I have relate to the business.

I believe that one way to help the whole scene is to raise cover charges. I know it's hard for some, but it needs to happen. Think about it, venues are offering mostly door deals and promoters are taking a cut so that leaves little to nothing for bands (especially touring bands trying to play on weekdays).

So for an established touring canadian band, hypothetically speaking, cover charge is $15 and 10 people show up on a tuesday, that's $150. A little more realistic for the break even scenario. On a weekend, 200 peeps show up at $15 et voila... Now this doesn't only benefit the bands. If a promoter takes his or her percentage, that gives them way more of a budget to work with to promote the show not to mention more of a niche. They can take that extra step and cover costly add space in the paper or pimpin' glossy posters. Basically to get the word out, it takes money and I believe that this will distribute funds accordingly along the chain and ultimately (with patience and good old hard work), the scene could start climbing from the 'valley' to the 'peak'.

I know it sounds like the old "turn the tables" trick, but the can-fans are as much a part of the scene as the can-bands. If people are willing to pay $20-50 to see an american band in the same venue, I'd have no problems spending $15 to see any of the bands mentioned in this thread especially if they're on tour!

BUT...

Nothing in this world is perfect. I've worked with great promoters (you know who you are... thumbs up for your dedication and love for music) and I've worked with sketch bags. We always loved rolling into a town to find out that the show was either never booked or got cancelled. The lines of communication are already way too complex and a simple way to keep everybody on the same page and eliminate sketch bags is to use contracts. They aren't bad, they're actually quite good. Everything that's expected from everybody involved is right there on the paper. A good start to a revolution.

After all the business is out of the way, it's all about having fun!

[bouche]

I think the problem there is that you would likely lose those that aren't aware of the band. Walk in's that may have paid 8 or 10 bucks for some live music and drinking would likely turn away at $15.

$15 is pretty fair, for live music fans though. Wouldn't that be something...setting a flat rate across canada I would love to see the bars drop the beer prices at the same time!

[The Chameleon]

The only comments I have relate to the business.

I believe that one way to help the whole scene is to raise cover charges. I know it's hard for some, but it needs to happen. Think about it, venues are offering mostly door deals and promoters are taking a cut so that leaves little to nothing for bands (especially touring bands trying to play on weekdays).

So for an established touring canadian band, hypothetically speaking, cover charge is $15 and 10 people show up on a tuesday, that's $150. A little more realistic for the break even scenario. On a weekend, 200 peeps show up at $15 et voila... Now this doesn't only benefit the bands. If a promoter takes his or her percentage, that gives them way more of a budget to work with to promote the show not to mention more of a niche. They can take that extra step and cover costly add space in the paper or pimpin' glossy posters. Basically to get the word out, it takes money and I believe that this will distribute funds accordingly along the chain and ultimately (with patience and good old hard work), the scene could start climbing from the 'valley' to the 'peak'.

I know it sounds like the old "turn the tables" trick, but the can-fans are as much a part of the scene as the can-bands. If people are willing to pay $20-50 to see an american band in the same venue, I'd have no problems spending $15 to see any of the bands mentioned in this thread especially if they're on tour!

BUT...

Nothing in this world is perfect. I've worked with great promoters (you know who you are... thumbs up for your dedication and love for music) and I've worked with sketch bags. We always loved rolling into a town to find out that the show was either never booked or got cancelled. The lines of communication are already way too complex and a simple way to keep everybody on the same page and eliminate sketch bags is to use contracts. They aren't bad, they're actually quite good. Everything that's expected from everybody involved is right there on the paper. A good start to a revolution.

After all the business is out of the way, it's all about having fun!

I agree totally and this echoes much of my previous post. To keep the scene strong you must make it possible for the bands you like to keep touring. Without outside money the only way is a fair door price, and $5-10 ain't fair these days/ sorry.

I find it hillarious that many people in Toronto will think twice about paying a $10+ cover charge, but won't blink an eye about ordering $12 martini.

It's sad when 90 min of live music isn't even worth the investment of a cocktail to some people.

It's all about the money.

[bouche]

Maybe steering clear of bars is the answer. Perhaps promoters should book their own halls, get their own liquor licenses, charge minimum for beers while making the ticket price optimum.

Paying 12 bucks for a martini, is retarded, when you could make it for only a few bucks yourself. You can't be grassroots unless your making and selling your own drinks.

There. Cheap booze is the answer.

[nattyMatty]

Flyers is the answer... Solid wood slabs

[MK]

I think it would help out a lot if some of these Can-Jam bands got publicists...or maybe a publicity company that could represent a handful of them.

Anyone ever hire one or investigate hiring one?

You can't rely on the bars to do the promotion.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Guest

[SteveThe Owl]

I always join these sorts of discussions late and feel like the farmer who's shut the barn door after the horses have run out.

In fact, I'm still wading through the thread and probably won't have much of value to contribute for a couple of days.

But let me start by saying that I approach this as 1) a listener (I don't like the word 'fan') and as 2) someone who faces similar challenges, only in a different medium.

How do you keep something alive when you fear no one else cares? Can you make a lot of awesome out of a little mediocre? When do you throw up your hands and start listening to Majic100?

I fell in love with the whole idea of live (call it jam-rock, call it stoner-rock, whatever, but be careful of definitions, as they can cause ossification and mental death) music after I started up the Dusty Owl again -- to a writer, music tends to be something in a can that you open up while you're doing your own work in an ivory tenement. Being up on stage myself and seeing stuff fall together with people I respect and admire when it seems so unlikely is the most unbelievable high. I'm talking about spontaneous poetry here, with a good dose of music tossed in. But a poetry reading is (like) a show -- sure, you coulda stayed at home with your book or CD, but you came out to see it alive before your eyes and to share with other people who are there for the same reason you are.

And there are other parallels between the writer's life and that of a musician. Days without sleep traveling to and from readings and other like events in other cities, for example. And after I log off tonight from here I have at least an hour of postering the streets of downtown Ottawa in the middle of the night for the next Dusty Owl event.

And so as I see it what all this does boil down to is simply the state of Indie/Alt culture as a whole. Which is again why I bring my poetry stuff into it.

I could shop at Chapters for the next Tom Clancy book, but I prefer going to readings and meeting the authors (most of whom are almost as poor as I am). I could go to HMV to buy the next classic rock greatest-hits package, but I prefer buying CDs from the artists themselves at shows. I've never been to the Corel Centre, but I feel at home at Babylon or Zaphod's or Mavericks.

Big-box culture is always closing in. Some of us stand our ground, whether we stand up to play, stand up to listen, or stand up to read.

It's hard as hell, it can wreck you. But there's a real choice involved. I'm enjoying the ride so far; I've found a lot of cool stuff that reminds me why I have a soul and a brain, and I've met a lot of cool and talented people along the way.

And it's not just some form of impacted geekdom or snobbery -- it really is a matter of asking a little more of yourself.

You don't get that at Wal-Mart.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Guest
I hate typos...

[Stoolshed]

Great post Jeff. I couldn't agree more.

I think I'm older than all of you, but I still like playing music and touring. Love it. The things that have changed for me over time, as mentioned by El Pab-Nero is that as you get older you want to do more things with permanence, live in a home, have a kid that you don't leave for 2 month tours, etc. Now when we tour, we do it 5 days at a time, then I rush back to see the little pooper. I couldn't imagine not watching every step of her evolution because I was touring said barren wasteland.

BUT, I'm still glad I did every tour I did, met the people I did, and if this jam scene turns into a good music scene, great! I used to be wary of telling people of my jamband roots because inevitably you got pigeonholed, but lately I realize that jam has pervaded all music. And all music has pervaded jam. A shit-mix, as it were.

Here's to continued music, and here's to finding the balance between home and tour, so it all works. It's easily possible. I think jambands maybe just need to learn that constant touring is also not normal. Phish and the Dead didn't tour constantly. Instead, they did a few sets of dates a year. Granted there were long sets of shows, but in between were long periods of home life. Modern young bands just stay on the road. While there is the occasional success story, more often bands get worn and don't get anywhere. Home is important, even just to practice and write. Writing and practicing on the road is mostly a myth. I don't need to hear another song written about being on the road.

A side note: the most important thing I've learned about the music biz is that there are far better ways of exposing your music to the masses than touring 7500 kilometres each way 3 times a year. Here's to planes, rented minivans, and writing some goddamn music that can be played on the radio, hence exposing a deserving artist to the public ear.

Ciao, Stephen

[zero]

MK - so the hose is a penis right?

[Pablo Sanchez]

I think it would help out a lot if some of these Can-Jam bands got publicists...or maybe a publicity company that could represent a handful of them.

Anyone ever hire one or investigate hiring one?

You can't rely on the bars to do the promotion.

Agreed that this is needed. Unfortunately after paying the agent 15% and manager 10% off the top before expenses the publicist money would probably have to come out of thr $10-$20 per day perdium.

What canjam bands really have to do is stop writing music and concentrate on meditation in hopes of attaining some sort of enlightenment that allows you to stop eating. That would save so much cash!

[nattyMatty]

What canjam bands really have to do is stop writing music and concentrate on meditation in hopes of attaining some sort of enlightenment that allows you to stop eating. That would save so much cash!

Total Gridlock

[bouche]

don't forget the Lottery.

[nattyMatty]

Pool Hustling too.. Loose to the wrong guy.... There goes your mic stand.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Guest

[boiler]

I agree 5 bucks is a pretty low price to see live music. My wife and I throw a fair bit of support to the live music scence in Toronto. I think we're out there as much as anybody. I don't know if I would be able to attend the number of shows I do for an average of $15 dollars. (30 bucks considering it's two of us but that's besides the point.) We just moved to an easier place to bike to most Toronto venues, the cab fairs were killing us. The point being, it costs lots of cash to get out to a show, let a alone pay for the show and the ridiculous prices you pay to drink in this city. My philosophy has always been, I can see 10 great bands for $100 rather than 1 BIG band for $100.

I certainly don't mind paying $15 for a band like JSB, but would I pay $15 to see (so I don't pick on any band) an up and coming band? I doubt it. $10 they'd have a much better chance. Chameleon, I hear what you're saying about bands that are still cutting their teeth, not making any money. Let's face it though, I'm not going to pay 2 million dollars for an artists first painting either. (as if I had 2 mill).

So if Canadian bands were getting an average of $12.50/person at the door, where would that leave things?

Also, does a "newer band" need to make as much money as a vetern touring band?

How far should a "newer band" tour?

Also, I think it is VERY important to buy a bands CD at their shows. To me (I don't pertend to know anything about the economics of the business) this is where the real revenue generation can take place.

You know what they say about razors, "Sell the shaver low, sell the blades high."

Edited August 18, 2006 by Guest

[Dr. J]

An interesting thread....one I will reflect on once I get some rest. I've just experienced 2 nights of great music - Spades/Sadies in Peterborough Wednesday night and Spades/Sam Roberts in Kingston last night.

This morning as the sun was coming up and the boys were dropping me off (even tho I hadn't played a note or lifted an amp) all i wanted to do was get to bed. Then as I was laying down, I realized the band would just be pulling the old van back out on the road to begin the 10 hour trip to the Sault for a show tonight. It's moments like that I realize why many folks, myself included, could never make a living as a musician.

[The Chameleon]

Some more good comments, but the song is the same.

Bouche, I agree throwing your own parties and selling alcahol is a good idea but very expensive.

Sure you can make money, but you have to hire a small staff, pay for your permit, then pay a rental fee, then on top of that you will have to rent a mixing board and speaker cabinets as most hall are not equiped. So to do that you'd have to invest at least a grand. Again where's the money?

As for publicists, /i ahve hired one for my band before and it was wortheless. Why? Becuase I have since found out pretty much every publicist with any connections in Canada, has no clue about the jam-band scene or how to promote this type of music and where the market is. So they ar useless, we were better off doing it ourselves. The straight music industry (which publicists are part of) are still looking to work with the next Nickleback. There are a handful of really good publicist in the US, but it is very hard getting them to work with you at any price, when you are from Canada. You have to go to the US and get known first. (difficult to say the least.).

As for raising cover prices it's gotta happen and moiney wise we arfe not talking pocketing money here, we are talking survival and breakng even. But on the fan side I understand thinking twice about paying 12-15 for a band that is not a headliner in your mind.

I've done the math thought about it and toured this country a bit. My conclusion for my band is to go to the US ASAP. It is the only realistic way to get anywhere seriously, when you are not playing stright ahead rock or pop. Trying to develop your band in Canada doesn't make sense. Too bad.

[cANDYmAN]

My conclusion for my band is to go to the US ASAP. It is the only realistic way to get anywhere seriously, when you are not playing stright ahead rock or pop. Trying to develop your band in Canada doesn't make sense. Too bad.

If it were that easy, more bands would be doing it me thinks. p2 forms, union stuff and fees... basically more BIG expsenses. I know stoolshed wrote a great post about this topic way back but would any others (who have gone to the US) care to take it from here?

Good weekend folks? My head hurts.

[Dr. J]

I think all the young bands need to do at this point to make it happen, is focus on an area. a town. then the province. Play a lot, write good stuff. Get something real happening in your own neck of the woods. I think when a band really has something going on in one place, the word spreads and it becomes real

Based on my limited experience (which isn't jamband) with one band (The Spades), and for all the difficulties mentioned (Canada's vast geography, limited radio access etc. etc.), I believe Gentlemonkey's advice strikes to the very heart of the matter. You can't know every radio programmer, every entertainment editor, every music blogger from coast to coast, but you can in your own hometown and maybe 1 or 2 other markets and that's all you need.

Here's just 4 aspects of what I think Gentlemonkey is referring to and again I apologise that my experience is limited to one band (rock). Of course, for everything that has worked for them, there have been 20 things that have failed miserably. You need to survive the 20 to find the one.

1. A hometown residency is critical, for all the reasons already mentioned about honing your musical skills etc. but for much more than that. Early on The Spades set up two residencies ... one at the Moho in Peterborough and one at the Merchant in Kingston. Both have paid dividends, but for very different reasons.

For 3 months they dragged their asses and their gear to Kingston to play a Wednesday nite gig for a few friends and relatives at the Merchant. It was pretty discouraging really. Then one night, a young lady came up to them after the show and said how much she had enjoyed it and said she would be back next week with her husband who also played in a band. Sure enough the next week, there she was front and centre, with her husband...Gord Sinclair of The Tragically Hip. Far fetched? I think good luck is a corollary of hard work. She didn't need to wait or wonder when the boys would be back in town or where etc, she knew exactly where they'd be in 1 weeks time.

The Moho residency brought different results. Once the band had established its own local draw, they were able to introduce their Friday nite fans to other artists such as the Golden Dogs, Matthew Barber etc. It worked well for the other artists who were in town for the first time and had an automatic crowd. The flip side, of course, is that The Spades can now go almost anywhere in Canada and play with a band that also has a hometown draw.

2. Don't worry about Toronto...at least in the beginning. Unless you've got a shitload of friends and relatives who can bring another shitload of friends and relatives out to see you, it's not worth it. The market is simply too saturated. You're better off to play for a 100 people in Hamilton or Oshawa than you are for 20 in Toronto. The notion that all or any of those 20 are industry insiders is an illusion. Besides if you're going to play for industry folks, you're better off to do it on your home turf in front of your home crowd, not in a half empty bar in the big smoke. If you've got a buzz going at home, they'll come. I've seen the suits at the MoHo on a Friday nite hahaha

Also, unless you've got a management or record company with a lot of clout or a loving aunt with a lot money, doing showcases such CMW and NXNE is generally a waste of time for the same reasons as above.

3. Don't forget the kids! Building a fanbase on 19+ alone won't do it. Contact your local high school music teachers. Do workshops on writing music, recording music, whatever they want you to do. Play every all ages event that is appropriate and available. I've seen The Spades play eveything from downtown street parties to high school fundraisers. They've used local high school bands to open all ages shows. Offer to be a judge at their Battle of the Bands. The other night at the Festival of Lights, I couldn't believe the number of 14/15 year olds walking around with Spades shirts on. Every time those kids walk down the hall of their high school, you can't buy exposure like that. These kids have better communication links than the Pentagon.

4. Treat your hometowm fans well for supporting you. A few years ago, The Spades rented a small tour boat (only cost I think $200 for 90 mins) and talked one of the local restaurants into serving munchies and drinks. Space was limited, but it was a special hour and a half. This time I would suggest the band do the same but offer tickets not only to the members of their online forum, but give a block to the local radio station to give away as well. No public sale. You're either a member of the fan forum or you win your way on.

Although they are in the process of releasing a new CD, the band is also making a free download available each week for the next 10 weeks on their website. In the end, fans will get the equivalent of 2 CD's. One they pay for and one for free.

There are many other ways to create a hometown buzz. When they had time, the Spades hosted their own radio program on the local campus station featuring the music they liked, as well as highlighting the music and shows of artists who were coming to town. They are also very supportive of local charitable causes etc. I could go on, but you see what I mean and most musicians on here could add another 10 suggestions of their own.

The critical thing is to make sure you take care of things at home, before you head out across the country.

Thanks to GM for striking the thought and to anyone who's actually cared enough to make it this far in the post.

Finally, thanks to all the great musicians who are out there working their asses off to bring us the tunes!

[Sarahbelle]

wow... I didn't read this entire thread but it sure is interesting...I had to think it over before I wrote something!

I think that CamJam is still going strong but maybe not as strong as it used to be. I know it has to do with no Phish and not really too much exposure out there to kids into Jambands. I think "jam" is an elusive word these days with many bands refering to themselves as jam/jazz/funk or Jam/Hip Hop/Electronica etc... There's so much blending of music now! No genre stands on its own!

Also I think in general that music is kind of at a standstill. There hasn't really been anything new since the grunge movement or the Rave scene.

I think we all need a breath of fresh air to music and to our scene. But, I love it so much!! I just feel so lucky to know so many great people and hear great bands almost every weekend...especially after being in Korea where there's not really much of either thing! I just hope people stay positive and keep coming out cause that's what will keep things alive and well!!

cheers!

Sarah

[edger]

Well said!

Thanks for the insight. I couldn't agree more. I think that a band's home-town family/community is what helps them to be able to continue to plow through the "valleys" so that they are able to hang in there in order to work their way back to the "peaks". Without that symbiotic pattern of loyalty, things can be difficult to sustain over the long-term.

I feel very fortunate that I have been able to become a part of a lively hometown assemblage of music lovers. You know who you are... I respect your endurance!!

And I can't give enough thanks to the bands. I don't know where my sanity would be without the outlet that you continue to facilitate...

Edited August 21, 2006 by Guest

[guigsy]

Also I think in general that music is kind of at a standstill. There hasn't really been anything new since the grunge movement or the Rave scene.

i think the explosion of canadian "indie" music in the early 2000's, up to this point, is an example of a great "new" thing happening in music - though, in some respects i think its also a bit of a maturation of the mid 90's east coast scene - but, i mean, take the communal-like philosophy from the arts and crafts kids, and im reminded of the scene in festival express where jerry is explaining the economics of his "scene" to some others on the train who werent really "getting it". these things arent so removed from each other. and neither is the philosophy behind the playing.

but the sound is a little different.

i've kept up on this thread as its happened, and all i really want to say is canjam or not, canadian music is at the best its been, probably ever.

taking this "scene" outside of that, and scrutinizing its appeal, or size, or quality, state, fate, or whatever is really just segregating a part from its whole, obviously. and in doing so, segregating about a dozen or so bands and a couple thousand fans, spanning the entire country, who willingly identify with the word "jam" and some idea of what that means.. in general it seems to mean "bands that play like the dead and phish and people that emulate hippies".

i think it's fate lies with killing the word "jam". maybe replace it with "live". it's just as vague and all encompassing, but it doesnt have the connotations that "jam" does.

i agree with those who made the points about it mostly being about seeing live music and not necessarily jam music.

there are lots of tasty bits in canadian music right now, and if there's concern over the "jam scene", maybe it's time to adjust our scope and have a look at the "live music scene" - i believe canada has a great live music scene happening and the best is yet to come as more people catch on... it's still so young!

[ollie]

Excellent practical advice Dr. J!

[zero]

i think the explosion of canadian "indie" music in the early 2000's, up to this point, is an example of a great "new" thing happening in music - though, in some respects i think its also a bit of a maturation of the mid 90's east coast scene

Now that's an interesting point on a whole other level. Some would say the trend is moving west to say Edmonton (Cadence Weapon, Shout Out Out Out, Ten Second Epic, Source Code etc.).