Proposed: 60 Wind Turbines from Ajax to Scarborough

[SaggyBalls]

they're really not very loud, and are not generally erected where people work and play, so a malfunction isn't going to be of huge concern.

It's good to have this not be a one sided discussion, but the arguments against don't have as much clout as the arguments for.

[Davey Boy 2.0]

your avatar makes everything you type seem shoutingly abrasive

[Schwa.]

It's good to have this not be a one sided discussion, but the arguments against don't have as much clout as the arguments for.

It's not even close.

[Jaimoe]

The sad thing is that folks in Scarborough get up-in-arms about "ugly" turbines, but where were their voices when the Provinical Liberals made a sneaky deal to stick a huge new power-generator on Toronto's waterfront. There were rallies, but they were poorly attended. I went though. Those that think having a giant new power generator smack-dab in the middle of the still under construction 40 thousand resident neighbourhood is a good idea, are insane; not to mention that the generator killed any chance of waterfront revitalization in that area - a plan the city has worked on for the past 20 years.

If we had more turbines and solar power or cut-down on consumption, then we wouldn't need more generators and especially not located in prime urban areas.

[badams]

If we had more turbines and solar power or cut-down on consumption, then we wouldn't need more generators and especially not located in prime urban areas.

BINGO!!!

If we weren't so power hungry and could give up some of our gadgets we wouldn't need to constantly expand our energy producing means. Cutting consumption is a great idea but it seems we are still a long way from that or at least doing it seriously.

[Jaimoe]

I like a lot of things about Dalton McGuinty - his Greenbelt initiative being near the top - but he's out of touch when it comes to developing power plans and power consumption.

[AD]

there's a windfarm soon to be built in the parkhill / arkona area as well.

[Schwa.]

WHAT???? I COULDN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE JET ENGINES!!

[questcequecest?]

McGuinty was instrumental in shutting down the Lakeview coal plant. They had to replace the generation from somewhere, and gas turbines are the best fit in an urban environment... transmisssion is also expensive, and takes longer to develop than most generator plants (so importing the power from remote locations was out of the picture).

In my opinion, we need to develop gigawatts of new generation offshore in lake Erie, to take advantage of the multiple circuit high voltage lines currently running to Nanticoke. Don't steal my idea!

[Jaimoe]

I agree that importing power is out of the question, but building a plant smack-dab in the middle of waterfront redevelopment and future sight of a huge neighbourhood is short-sighted and destructive, not to mention an arrogant slap in the face. They easily could have built the plant a few kilometres east of where it is now near the vast industrial lands at Leslie and Lakeshore (an area that isn't part of the waterfront development plan).

[Birdy]

First Studies Encouraging on Lake Erie wind turbines

edit: oops!

Edited November 25, 2008 by Guest

[edger]

While I'm totally in support of any wind turbine initiative, I think the complaint below is likely a valid one. Sometimes a good ol' fashion dialogue can do much for persuasion and consensus. If that doesn't work, then by all means turn the heat up. Coming in with fists flyin' too early though can needlessly escalate things in a pretty unproductive direction.

In an email to CityNews, another resident said the meeting was anything but neighbourhood-based.

"Special-interest groups from all over [and] a hundred-plus Toronto Hydro employees, were bussed in to stone-wall the "community" meeting," wrote Joe Trentadue.

"All in all, it was not a "community event" and a disgrace to Toronto Hydro for manipulating what started out to be an information event for the community. Many community members, I for one, left early with disgust, at the brow-beating antics of the over-staged Toronto Hydro personnel and their obvious supporters," he concluded.

[deranger]

a community of individuals is a contradiction

[Birdy]

*gasp*

It's the interests of the individual that form the community.

[Thorgnor]

we are one

[SaggyBalls]

[color:purple]Speak for yourself.

[meggo]

While I'm totally in support of any wind turbine initiative, I think the complaint below is likely a valid one. Sometimes a good ol' fashion dialogue can do much for persuasion and consensus. If that doesn't work, then by all means turn the heat up. Coming in with fists flyin' too early though can needlessly escalate things in a pretty unproductive direction.

In an email to CityNews, another resident said the meeting was anything but neighbourhood-based.

"Special-interest groups from all over [and] a hundred-plus Toronto Hydro employees, were bussed in to stone-wall the "community" meeting," wrote Joe Trentadue.

"All in all, it was not a "community event" and a disgrace to Toronto Hydro for manipulating what started out to be an information event for the community. Many community members, I for one, left early with disgust, at the brow-beating antics of the over-staged Toronto Hydro personnel and their obvious supporters," he concluded.

hey edger!

i see what you mean and i think it's a good point. however, i think at the same time it's important to bring these kinds of 'heavy-hitters' to the table. to use chatham as an example again - my dad is doing a lot of work & research on bringing turbines to chatham-kent and it is being met with a lot of resistance. the really sad part is, there are some real nut-jobs at the city council meetings who actually have a lot of sway with chatham residents.

example: one woman came to a council meeting and claimed that having too many wind turbines in one area would knock the earth off its axis.

i shit you not. at a city council meeting. and this is a woman who has some kind of radio show, with listeners who believe things she says. maybe birdy knows who i'm talking about??

anyway, just wanting to point out that you want some big guns to effectively shut down the people who have no fucking clue what planet they're on.

interesting topic!

[Birdy]

hahah this particular crazy is actually my fifteenth cousin! or something like that. She's CRAZY. Quite actually. I remember as a kid growing up hiding in the living room as per my mom's instructions when we'd see her car come into the driveway.

haha

But yah, unfortunately the number of informed people to uninformed people on these issues is quite drastic, the uninformed outweighing the informed.

A lot of the time it's everything the informed can do to muster up enough support to quel the ridiculousness that is the uninformed. Seems like the mustering up was quite successful in this particular case Edger.

[Schwa.]

if stacking the deck in favour of the logical, environmental and educated is needed to quell the zealots, i say do it. They were probably reacting to several "information" meetings that were dominated by people like your crazy aunt birdy, so they decided to have the meeting lean their way for once. just speculating, but there is a lot invested in these projects only to be shot down my misinformation.

[phishtaper]

But yah, unfortunately the number of informed people to uninformed people on these issues is quite drastic, the uninformed outweighing the informed.

allowing for the fact that there are informed and uninformed on both sides of any issue.

i work in a policy research environment. part of what I do involves knowledge translation - the concept of people "using" research. i defer to experts on issues like this to provide evidence upon which an informed policy decision can be based. of course the public must become involved in the process, as should scientists, industry and policy makers, but it's a mistake to think that the public should have ultimate say. the decision to build public wind farms must be based on the evidence.

the fact that many people do not recognize the limited lifespan of these machines is troubling.

[hamilton]

the fact that many people do not recognize the limited lifespan of these machines is troubling.

I don't get it. It reaches the end of its lifespan, it gets replaced. Whassaproblem? Other than the cost involved in doing so, that is.

[phishtaper]

but that's not a trivial cost. at between $3 to $5 million per turbine, refitting a whole farm can cost a great deal. capital costs are on par with coal plants. whether building anew or replacing aged equipment, infrastructure costs are quite high.

the long-term financial viability of wind power is largely based on the free supply of the "fuel" ... ie., wind.

the key to driving this whole shift will be to introduce the market benefits of the production of the turbines (hire all the laid off Ford workers).

[Schwa.]

good point phishtaper, but we have to start somewhere, right? hows about the moolah that the government spends to take care of the elderly and for that matter, everyone else that is greatly effected/affected by the pollution created by coal fired plants et al? Prices must come down at one point.

Remember about 5-8 years back when only a small part of the population had a cell phone and that was actually all it was used for was calling other phones? well, the cell phone industry has realized this is a HUGE money maker and the R&D that has gone into cell phones is giant! All of the worlds craziest technology is going into phones now. Imagine if power was, and it is, as lucrative as a cell phone. Billions of dollars of R&D into windfarms could make these easy in the future.....we just need to get the ball rolling and get over the hurdles we're facing today.

[Birdy]

I think the hurdles are the uninformed, the more we have key note speakers coming out to municipalities to inform our citizens the better. The rotary club in CK just had Paul Gipe, world-renown wind energy expert come to their annual dinner to give a speech.

Nowadays it seems as though the brutal realities of all the rash decisions made previously to 'fix' problems are coming back full circle to bite us in the ass. Food, secularism, political correctness, all of these things seem to be going under a public expose right now of all their negative qualities.

The biggest hurdle for the proponets of wind technology are the informed opinions of it's opponents. One of the biggest things seems to be not wanting to jump into something rash because we're all concerned for the environment. The informed proponets of wind technology need to factor in EVERYTHING and what those relationships would be 20-30-40-100 years down the road. Putting to work laid off Ford employees is great, but it's not going to shift public opinion.

I consider myself a proponet of wind technology, and unfortunately aren't informed enough to really get into it... but when i read things about power plants sitting idle, i wonder what that actually means and why it's bad for a power plant to sit idle. Maybe i'm naive, but i just don't know.

[edger]

hey edger!

i see what you mean and i think it's a good point. however, i think at the same time it's important to bring these kinds of 'heavy-hitters' to the table. to use chatham as an example again - my dad is doing a lot of work & research on bringing turbines to chatham-kent and it is being met with a lot of resistance. the really sad part is, there are some real nut-jobs at the city council meetings who actually have a lot of sway with chatham residents.

example: one woman came to a council meeting and claimed that having too many wind turbines in one area would knock the earth off its axis.

i shit you not. at a city council meeting. and this is a woman who has some kind of radio show, with listeners who believe things she says. maybe birdy knows who i'm talking about??

anyway, just wanting to point out that you want some big guns to effectively shut down the people who have no fucking clue what planet they're on.

interesting topic!

Yeah, I see what you mean too. It's difficult to maintain some semblance of stability within any decision-making process when you've got wingnuts throwing the planet off of its axis!! It's definitely the idealist (or the remaining of shreds of idealism) within me that's playing the devil's advocate here. What came to my mind when I was reading this, was an example from Norfolk County and the Long Point Biosphere Area. That area has experienced a lot of unrest in recent years due to the collapse of the tobacco industry and tensions over the direction that local government should promote community development. There's been ongoing rifts within the community between farmers, hunters/anglers, and the naturalist community (and there is sizeable representation from all of those groups).

Anyways, in a nutshell through efforts to promote collaborative partnerships and through hosting a bunch of community-based info sessions, sustainability conferences, brainstorming exercises, etc. there has been some huge headway with respect to identifying common ground/objectives and enhancing collective capacity to do good things. Turns out some of these opposing personalities have some things in common. Take preserving habitat as one example... The farmers like it because it results in healthier streams and soil, hence better yields, the hunters like it because they have more to shoot at, and the naturalists like it for inherent reasons. Through relationship/trust building, etc. there has been increased acceptance that while their motivations and politics may be VERY different, they can still work together for some common end goals. I don't know too many people that don't want to enhance their individual/community well-being. The trick is finding ways to align the two... Obviously easier said than done.

The wind turbine issue may be more complex. I really don't know anything about this particular case, or how far along the community consultation process has played out. Nothing wrong with having the big players there to support the cause when things get ugly...but a little restraint can go a long way (sometimes) for avoiding/minimizing the ugliness. I am just thinking of Joe Blow Taxpayer, who is genuinely interested in the well-being of his community, wants to preserve his own self-interest as much as possible, simply wants some additional information, and should be able to receive it within a respectful environment. Wingnuts on all ends of the spectrum indeed. Ahh...yes...idealism.

Phishtaper...you and I should possibly chat some time too. I'm into the whole "knowledge translation/exchange" shtuff too...

Interesting indeedy.