"Economic Update"

[Birdy]

so it's ok to be talk about Alberta but it's absolutely wrong to do anything to appease elected members from Quebec and thus their constituents?

AD, it'd be the equivalent of allowing the Western Alliance for separatism, or whatever they called themselves back in the day, be the party pulling the strings of our "federal" government.

One province should not have that kind of power over "federal" policy. They should all be equally able to lobby for what they feel they deserve.

It should be okay to talk about Alberta and to talk about Quebec. But it should not be okay to form federal policy where concessions to either one would be given just to get it to pass.

[Birdy]

I find it hard to fathom that a cabinet made up of Liberals and NDP catering to the Bloc are going to easily and effectively come up with policy quickly that will benefit all Canadians. We're all demanding that our government come up with some great plan that helps Canada survive' date=' rebuild and strengthen. I prefer we don't do it rashly. I'd be skeptical of any plan formed overnight for such a big job.[/quote']

I find it hard to fathom that a cabinet made up of Stephen Harper and his faceless drones are going to quickly and effectively come up with policy that will benefit all Canadians, especially now that he's alienated a great deal of Canadians and the majority of the House of Commons.

I'm sceptical of any plan brought forth overnight for such a big job, regardless of who presents it.

F. Me too! That's why I quoted Mattm above that.

[AD]

if the Western Alliance gets members elected sure, they can use whatever power they have to get what they can for their constituents, who hopefully agree.

Concessions are at the very core of politics.

[Thorgnor]

But it's ok for Western seperatists to consort and conflate themselves with conservative economists to further their ends while in government? I quoted at length what we could expect from Steve-O and we got it. We can expect more diviseness and attempts to fracture Canadian unity from this group until it splits into it's honest constituents and the rest of those nutjobs and fascists fuck off.

Which is precisley why I'm upset by people's support for a "right-wing" coalition such as the one called the CPC.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Guest

[d_rawk]

Why is it that an appointed representative gets to make this decision??? The gov't is voted in by the people, the GG is NOT. Should this decision not have been made by someone that, we the people, entrusted with the authority??

Well that's a really tricky question We don't have a separation of powers and if we conflated our head of state with our head of the legislature, I think we'd be in a whole lot of trouble. We could do what some other Parliamentary systems do, though, and have an elected head of state (a President) who is largely symbolic but also there to act when an issue of confidence arises, while divorced from the legislature proper. That the GG is appointed could be a problem, although my sense is that the selection process tends to vet out the partisans, and that the full awe of the office pretty much forces those who occupy it to act as 'the position' and not 'the person who holds the position'.

Interesting that she has now just done what Byng did in the past. It was because of that there were changes made to the GG position/role. I guess nothing changed.

I don't see it KK. I'm not at all happy with the GG's decision, but didn't she do the opposite of what Byng did? (Instead of employing reserve power, and instead of declining the request of the sitting Prime Minister, she granted it on his advice. Normally if the GG declines a PMs advice, a resignation of the PM is considered the obvious course of action.)

I also think that perhaps this is what we need to really get a good plan going. I think that perhaps because of this little prorogue, the parties might be forced to think of canada first so though they might campaign, as mentioned above, they will also need to come up with the best solution to win...

Fair enough, and what I was getting at above in response to AD, although I did fail to make the connection that the GG may have made her decision for this purpose. Which is rather thoughtless of me, because I'm sure she has given this more thought and lost more sleep over it all than anyone, anywhere. I'd rather anticipated that she would say "go back to the house, sit down, make it work, all of you little brats", but if she had the forethought to consider that taking a timeout -> would lead to unofficial campaigning -> would lead to coming up with novel and workable economic solutions -> would lead to productive debate about the same -> would lead to implementation of the best idea, kudos to her! (not being sarcastic .. it kinda reads as sarcastic when I look it over)

[Kanada Kev]

Great post d_j. Thanks for responding to some of that. My reference to Byng was more the fact that it simply caused a government to be brought down. I totally see where the differences are that you noted, and it really does allow it to be a significantly altered situation.

I'm pissed too by the fact that the GG's wishes are ALLOWING parliament to take this "break" for 7 weeks!!! WTF?? The should have been forced to go back to work on the hill and hash this out. Fuck this bit where they get to go back to their own corners and allow the country to run rudderless through the Holiday Season. Happy Fuckin' New Year everyone!

I'm so glad I'm seeing Wico and Neil tonight to escape some of this bullshit. I'm ready to hit the bar now!

[can-o-phish]

Keep on rawkin in the free world KK!!!

Enjoy the show tonight :grin:

[Kanada Kev]

never anything less

Think i'm going to C'est What? fer beers/grub yummmmmm

p.s. - Fuck you Harper!

[can-o-phish]

It would make sense that part of the GG's decision to allow the suspension is that the coalition doesn't really have a leader. Dion is stepping down in just over 4 months which would leave the coalition somewhat "rudderless" until the new Liberal leader was appointed.

I'm sure the Conservatives will bring this point up over the next few weeks, that the coalition has a leader that will be leaving if it topples his government.

[d_rawk]

I'm pissed too by the fact that the GG's wishes are ALLOWING parliament to take this "break" for 7 weeks!!! WTF??

Me too, me too

I think that what she is doing is thinking that because Harper specifically requested prorogation, that if she said 'no', she would actually be interfering even more than she feels she ought to (because Harper would then be expected to step down). So she's probably showing a willingness to allow the elected members of the house to decide this, instead of it being her deciding this, but the upshot of that is granting Harper's immediate request, even if Harper's request is unpalatable. Ack, so ugly, all of it.

Enjoy Neil! I had a ticket for the Ottawa show, but had to give it away because of other considerations

[can-o-phish]

This just in before Harper met with Jean...

[phishtaper]

105 new posts?!! no way man. :susel:

someone send me the Coles Notes.

[Birdy]

Harper's a dick.

There you go!

[phishtaper]

macho grassy ass.

[Thorgnor]

What's that story aout the 5th of December again?

[Kanada Kev]

This just in before Harper met with Jean...

Awesome! Loved it.

Now be careful. Some people around here won't see this as humour. They'll think that you are saying Harper is just like Hitler!

[ollie]

Harper's a dick.

There you go!

Also, it's bizarro day.

[d_rawk]

What's that story aout the 5th of December again?

That it's maxwebster's / maxlobster's birthday!

(being born on the anniversary of the end of prohibition is just a bonus and one more excuse to drink)

[meggo]

i saw allan rock at the rideau centre tonight.

[AD]

i was rocking at home, but good try. and only one L next time please.

(allan rock is the president of ottawa u now)

[Birdy]

Political Power Struggle scaring Canada

Published: Thursday, December 04, 2008

OTTAWA - Almost three-quarters of Canadians say they are "truly scared" for the future of the country and a solid majority say they would prefer another election to having the minority Conservative government replaced by a coalition led by Stephane Dion, a new Ipsos-Reid poll says.

The poll also indicates Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his Conservatives would romp to a majority victory with a record 46 per cent public support if an election were held today.

The survey suggests Gov. Gen. Michaelle Jean was in tune with public opinion across the country when she agreed Thursday to suspend, or prorogue Parliament until Jan. 26 at the request of Harper. Almost seven in 10 of those surveyed Tuesday and Wednesday gave prorogation a thumbs up.

The Tories also were deemed by almost six in 10 Canadians to be the best managers of the economy in these troubling times.

Results of the wide-ranging survey, conducted exclusively for Canwest News Service and Global National, paint a picture of a population gripped by fear that is largely giving the Conservatives the benefit of the doubt - for now - to lead the country in such uncertain political and economic times.

"Overall, this is breaking quite clearly to the government as opposed to the coalition," said pollster Darrell Bricker.

Fully 60 per cent of those interviewed said they opposed replacing the government with Liberal-NDP coalition supported by the Bloc Quebecois, compared with 37 per cent who favoured the idea. Support for the coalition was highest in Quebec at 50 per cent, followed by 44 per cent in Atlantic Canada.

The poll indicates the prospect of the Dion-led coalition has prompted Canadians to rethink the value of an election so soon after the Oct. 14 poll. Fifty-six per cent said they would rather go to the polls than be governed by the coalition.

Bricker said the preference for an election, if the view holds in the coming weeks, will be an important consideration for Jean should the opposition topple Harper's government early in the new year.

"The Governor General is going to be hard-pressed to deny what the Canadian public wants," said Bricker, president of Ipsos Reid.

Bricker said a clear consensus appears to be building in Canada, albeit to a lesser degree in Quebec, that Harper is doing the right thing by trying to hang on to power.

"The idea of having Stephane Dion as the prime minister, combined with the coalition being supported by the Bloc Quebecois, is basically fatal in the minds of the public," Bricker said.

"They want to clear the air with an election as opposed to just handing power over to the coalition. They don't like the fact they haven't been asked their opinion directly of what's being proposed by the coalition."

Bricker said Canadians' unhappiness with the political upheaval now is trumping the question of who is to blame for the crisis. Those surveyed divided almost evenly between blaming the government and the opposition parties.

The poll says more than seven in 10 Canadians, or 72 per cent of those surveyed, said they are "truly scared" for the future of the country because of what is going on in Ottawa.

The fear touches every region and demographic in the country. The rate was highest in Alberta at 90 per cent, and lowest in Quebec at 62 per cent.

Bricker said the Conservatives' spike in popularity appears to reflect a backlash against the Liberals and New Democrats whose support slid to 23 per cent and 13 per cent respectively. The Greens had eight per cent support, while the Bloc polled 37 per cent in Quebec.

Ironically, Bricker said, the prospect of a coalition government involving the Liberals, New Democrats and Bloc Quebecois may end up allowing Harper to get the majority government he wasn't able to get on his own on Oct. 14.

The survey involved telephone interviews with 1,001 adults. In a sampling of that size, the results are considered accurate to within 3.1 percentage points.

Notes on a Crisis: The End

by Andrew Coyne

It’s over: the day, the decision, the crisis, the coalition, and Stephane Dion’s leadership. After the abortive putsch — constitutional as it may have been — the field is strewn with bodies, and the bloodletting has just begun.

After a day of skulking in the corridors of Parliament, I can tell you that the Grits no longer have the stomach for this fight. You could see it in the their body language, hear it in their voices. Their comments to reporters were all variations on a plea to the government to “help us in off this limb we have put ourselves out on.†I’m paraphrasing, of course: they were actually itemizing the things the government had to do to keep them from defeating it in when Parliament returns in January. But a day or two ago, there was nothing it could do. The die was cast. The train had left the station. There was no turning back.

Apparently, they didn’t quite think this thing through — to say the least. In particular, they did not take into account the possibility of prorogation. That’s to their credit, perhaps: it’s a bloody awful business, certainly undemocratic and arguably unconstitutional (though the Governor General’s decision has presumably settled that), and perhaps it didn’t occur to them that Harper could be so unscrupulous. That they failed to foresee that is as huge a tactical error as Harper’s failure to foresee the emergence of the coalition itself.

With Parliament prorogued, the coalition is dead. The only way they were going to make this thing stick, even temporarily, was by way of a speedy assumption of power, the glue that mends all breaks. But having lunged and missed, they will be very much on their back feet. I repeat: The coalition is over. I’ll be surprised if it lasts the week.

But don’t take my word for it. Two polls out today show that the coalition has backfired on its two main participants — hugely. Ekos has the Tories ahead by twenty points, 44-24, while Ipsos Reid puts the margin at an astounding 46-23. This is after the Tories had supposedly disgraced themselves by the “provocation†of cutting the political parties off the public teat, and by failing to provide adequate “stimulus.â€

Ipsos numbers show, further, that 60% of the public opposes the coalition, 62% are “angry†with it for trying to take power, while 68% support the Governor General’s decision. The Grits can read the numbers as well as I can. There is no way they will return to this well.

Indeed, the caucus, after a three hour meeting this afternoon, seems to have other priorities in mind — namely forcing Dion from the leadership ASAP, rather than wait until the May convention. That’s easier said than done, and is tangled up in the race to succeed him. For it only makes sense, if he is to be replaced quickly, to replace him with a permanent leader, and if the decision were made today it would almost certainly be Michael Ignatieff, and as Bob Rae can’t abide that, he will be doing everything in his power to see to it that Dion stays in place.

But assume that Ignatieff — notably skeptical about the coalition — does take over. Is it to be imagined that he would wish to submit himself, should he become Prime Minister, to the dictates of Jack Layton and Gilles Duceppe? Not that there’s much danger of that. The coming collapse of the coalition will mean the Governor General would have no choice, should the opposition defeat the government over its budget in January, but to call fresh elections. And these disastrous polling numbers, if they stand up, make it highy unlikely that the opposition will do any such thing.

So the Tories have won this round, but by the ugliest of means. Was the Governor General right to be their enabler? I’m not sure she had any choice. There’s only one real test of confidence in our system, and that’s a vote of the Commons. The last such confidence vote, on the Throne Speech, was less than a week ago. So while it was common sense to assume that Harper was proroguing just to avoid losing the next one, it would take a nervy GG to disregard the advice of her First Minister without absolute cut-and-dried proof that had he had lost the House’s confidence.

Still, while there appear to be few if any formal conditions attached to the prorogation, she may well have attached some informal conditions — after tall, what else did they talk about in the course of their two-and-a-half hour tete a tete? The sovereign has the right, as per Bagehot, “to be consulted, to encourage, and to warn.†She may well have warned him what would happen if he didn’t bring in a budget — and face a confidence test — at the first opportunity.

Harper should never have put the GG in this position. It would have been better from a number of perspectives for Harper to have faced the music in the Commons. But it’s at least better than demanding the GG call an election, as Harper might have tried. And, while the end does not justify the means, it would take a hard heart indeed not to cheer the death of the coalition.

[SmoothedShredder]

[color:purple]I didn't see that coming.

Checkmate in 8 moves. The correct play would be downplay the whole 'hate Harper' angle. But no...

I think people really underestimated Harpers tactics here. It fucking took guts to do what he did, and to have it come out in the polls in his favour. It was all about the party funding... that's what freaked the other side into a coalition with the separatists! (The only thing I guess all three parties could agree on was wanting that free government subsidy) What a fake on Harper's part, and the oppositions took it hook line and sinker.

This is so delicious. It's so true how the people get the government they deserve... not 'think' they deserve. Thanks' coalition from 'saving' us from the penny pinching Conservatives in these incredibly slim months during a huge global downturn. Ha!

I don't care how most of y'all think it's a slimy move... it was definitely a move, one that came from a mile away, walked up and silly slapped all three opposition parties, and struck a chord with their only true motivation... self-preservation... I wonder when in the future you'll finally wake up to see that is exactly what just happened here. It was a powerplay, and as it unfolds over the next couple of months, you'll see the results.

Wow... just wow.

FWIW, I would of preferred they worked it out together and it never came to this... it's so sad how much hate is out there in Canada.

Also... I'd love to have a Liberal government... NDP even... but first I'd love to live in a country that can afford them. Or have those 5 other Earths to meet out demand for resources shown up in our orbit recently?

[Thorgnor]

Ends justify the means, eh?

very disappointing

Out of a fear of seperatists "having a say" Canadians will criminalize the less fortunate at a rate not seen in our history through the enablement of a Conservative majority...

It's as if we're smashing our own faces into a stone wall expecting the wall to crumble, but instead we're left with a nation full of smashed up faces and still no way over the wall... suppose we should just sit in this forest and think about it, eh?

[phishtaper]

hmmm, so he's not a dick now?

[can-o-phish]

Oh, he's still a dick and we still don't have one party leader worthy to represent our great country...

The polls mean very little given most of the people interviewed and asked questions didn't have a clear picture of anything with the workings of governments, coalitions, parliamentary procedures, etc...

Not the case on this forum!

Canada's economy, like other countries, is still crumbling and whoever is going to try to address the problem better get out their sh!t bats as we're headed into one helluva sh!t storm, both economically and politcally...this is far from over..