Grateful Dead SBD's removed from Archive

[hamilton]

Excellent statement from Mr Gans.

[MoMack]

So now because they have run their business poorly, and squandered away billions of dollars, and there isn't enough to go around for the "family" they should reverse their position and become more money oriented?

It still doesn't fit with the spirit of the thing to me... but what do I know.

[MoMack]

I guess it just shows once again that the hippy experiment really didn't work - at least not in an all or nothing sense...

... I suppose I'd probably do the same thing for a friend. Just too bad that its come down to needing to do this.

[Calamity Jane]

So now because they have run their business poorly, and squandered away billions of dollars, and there isn't enough to go around for the "family" they should reverse their position and become more money oriented?

It still doesn't fit with the spirit of the thing to me... but what do I know.

precisely!!!

it's still a business/capitalist decision no matter how they try to paint it otherwise. Of course we can feel sympathy when people are downsized, but maybe quite simply, the organization (GDM) got too big to support itself. Rather than change such a fundamental element of the GD phenomena/business (free taping and trading access), they should have looked at other ways to "balance the books"

If there are currently not enough GD fans out there, BUYING shit from GDM and keeping the business afloat, then how will limiting the music availability (or possibly charging for it) suddenly increase the fan base? Seems rather backwards to me.

As for Gans' accusation of fan 'entitlement' -- yeah -- it's a valid one -- but the kinder, more accurate word is actually "expectation" -- it's what we've come to associate and expect from the band, given its 40 year history.

[MoMack]

Good point.

I mean, the way they got so big in the first place was by allowing access... taking it away isn't going to get more involved. It just isn't. (especially when the attempt is on the backbone of a couple old tired musicians...lol)

[Esau]

[quote name='Calamity Jane

]Rather than change such a fundamental element of the GD phenomena/business (free taping and trading access)' date=' they should have looked at other ways to "balance the books"[/quote']

Recording & trading of live GD is still allowed, its just the easily accesible data base of shows that isn't. Theres still scores of SBDs and AUDs via bittorrent or even the old fashion way via Canada Post.

Granted I'm disappointed this has occured, but I personally don't see why folks are so pissed off, except for the fact they backed out of archive, nothing else in the trading policy has changed to my knowledge.

And I believe "sense of entitlement" is an accurate description of some of the reactions to this.

[Calamity Jane]

yeah, I know all that Esau...I just tend to love hyberbole and you know, stirring the pot!!!

I guess I meant that really we'd come to LOVE, appreciate (and yes expect) to continue having easy access via the archive.....so.....

And I believe "sense of entitlement" is an accurate description of some of the reactions to this.

....so add 'lazy' to the fan description. It fits me, that's for sure. Now it's back to the begging favours routine.

[Booche]

I dont give a shit what biased point David Gans wants to make. He has had his hand in the 'cookie jar' for years and probably hasnt paid money for anything the Dead has released in over 20 years. Let's not forget his personal access to the vault in all of this.

If I have a feeling of 'self-entitlement' that is their fault, not mine and is a strong part of the magic associated with the love I gained for their open minded business approach.

I am probably jumping the gun because we can still get shows from other sites, but this tastes really bad.

[hamilton]

[quote name='Calamity Jane

]Rather than change such a fundamental element of the GD phenomena/business (free taping and trading access)' date=' they should have looked at other ways to "balance the books"[/quote']

Recording & trading of live GD is still allowed, its just the easily accesible data base of shows that isn't. Theres still scores of SBDs and AUDs via bittorrent or even the old fashion way via Canada Post.

Granted I'm disappointed this has occured, but I personally don't see why folks are so pissed off, except for the fact they backed out of archive, nothing else in the trading policy has changed to my knowledge.

And I believe "sense of entitlement" is an accurate description of some of the reactions to this.

I also think that a reversion to this "older" method of trading helps to encourage more of a community in a way that clicking a button and downloading does not.

Back in the bubble-mailer days, I felt a greater connection with virtual strangers in various parts of North America who took time out of their day to burn discs for me. There's a dude named Brad in Wisconsin that I can thank for 70% of my Phish collection.

Mostly, it seems like people are pissed that they didn't burn as many shows off of the archive when they had access - just downloaded, listened for a while, and then erased, thinking that those shows would always be there whenever they wanted to hear them. There have been rumblings of this move for years; don't blame GDP for your own lack of foresight. I bet a few spindles of blank cds seems like a cheap investment now.

I agree with Esau that although I'm disappointed, I'm certainly not upset.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

I also think that a reversion to this "older" method of trading helps to encourage more of a community in a way that clicking a button and downloading does not.

I think you're absolutely right about that. This interweb thing is a two-edged sword.

I also think that one of the richer ironies in all this is that the ultimate purpose of all those SBDs on the Archive for so long will have been to collect stats on what we thought were the best shows, which they can now sell as "Deadheads Choice".

"You've been Koons'd!"

(I love that.)

[M.O.B.E]

It still doesn't fit with the spirit of the thing to me... but what do I know.

I think the spirit of it died with Kesey.

[payce-ley]

the response on San Francisco's boing boing

Greedy Grateful Dead widow burns down online show-library

A reader writes,

Archive.org has been forced to take down over 1000 soundboard recordings of the Grateful Dead by Jerry's wife and a few (perhaps one) remaining member of the band.

"For years, Archive.org has served as the repository for the Grateful Deads copious electronic recordings. Now, the site will be limited to streaming "audience-recorded" shows.

"The reaction from the very large global Deadhead community has been very interesting, sociologically. People are confused, angry, depressed, grateful for the time they had, and more."

This is pretty disappointing. Deadheads made the Grateful Dead some pretty substantial fortunes over the years by acting as unpaid, volunteer evangelists for their commercial offerings. This is a genuine betrayal of the audience from a couple of greedy people who would line their pockets at the expense of the memory of the generous, mutually beneficial relationship between the band and its supporters.

[mark tonin]

There's no accounting for why I love those songs so much (just as there's no accounting for taste generally), but I do always have to be aware when it crowds out my appreciation of music I've never run across before, so thanks for pushing the question. Luckily there is this community of people here who do listen to music that asks us to pay attention, so I can always expect to be pushed in worthwhile directions.

Well said, Dr. Evil!

I also think that a reversion to this "older" method of trading helps to encourage more of a community in a way that clicking a button and downloading does not.

Back in the bubble-mailer days, I felt a greater connection with virtual strangers in various parts of North America who took time out of their day to burn discs for me. There's a dude named Brad in Wisconsin that I can thank for 70% of my Phish collection.

Brad Sall ... he was the first person to ever do a B&P for me ... Phish 08-01-99 (Japan) ... we actually met up for a short visit in Ohio at a campground before a Phish show, because of the B&P's that he did for me. I really enjoyed that part of trading via snail mail ... the personal connections that came from it.

Peace, Mark

[timouse]

I also think that a reversion to this "older" method of trading helps to encourage more of a community in a way that clicking a button and downloading does not.

Back in the bubble-mailer days, I felt a greater connection with virtual strangers in various parts of North America who took time out of their day to burn discs for me. There's a dude named Brad in Wisconsin that I can thank for 70% of my Phish collection.

Mostly, it seems like people are pissed that they didn't burn as many shows off of the archive when they had access - just downloaded, listened for a while, and then erased, thinking that those shows would always be there whenever they wanted to hear them. There have been rumblings of this move for years; don't blame GDP for your own lack of foresight. I bet a few spindles of blank cds seems like a cheap investment now.

I agree with Esau that although I'm disappointed, I'm certainly not upset.

well put. before the archive, i did b&p's with people all over the continent, and bought very expensive and rare US stamps to use on a return mailer. when the show arrived in my mailbox, it went right on to the stereo, while i ran to the computer and dropped a thank-you to the head that sent it along...flash forward to the last show i dl'ed from the archive which i just finally got round to listening to

when bittorrent picked up speed, it seemed like the ideal way of sharing gd. everyone chipped in bandwidth in order to spread the music, and i was proud to leave my computer on for torrenting for days after i had the show. when the archive collection really got rolling, it was icing on the cake...

i went browsing rec.music.gdead today to see what the folks there were saying, and it's more of the same. the dead stash at archive.org was something that everyone just figured would always be there, and there is a lot of bitterness over the change. lots of jerry quotes saying that "once we've played it, we're done with it." there was also lots of discussion about the dire financial state that GDP is in...apparently they laid off ram rod and a buch more folks this week, and they are looking to set up a long term cash cow.

i suppose that it's their music to begin with, but it really smacks of retirement money. and as far as that goes, now that the last few shows i've seen and don't own are now streaming only, i will probably buy them when they finally come back as products of gdp.

if jerry hadn't been cremated he would probably be spinning in his grave.

[hamilton]

Brad Sall ... he was the first person to ever do a B&P for me ... Phish 08-01-99 (Japan) ... we actually met up for a short visit in Ohio at a campground before a Phish show, because of the B&P's that he did for me. I really enjoyed that part of trading via snail mail ... the personal connections that came from it.

Peace, Mark

Ha-ha-ha - you're right, it was Brad Sall. Quality guy. I wondered if anyone on here would know who I was talking about!

[Deeps]

Maybe you need to be more open-minded, and accept the fact that a lot of people actually enjoy listening to Mix 99.9, or gangsta rap, or soft jazz, or whatever. Not to mention sports, or TV, or dance clubs. Open-mindedness is a two-way street.

True my sentiments previous do not speak to a totally open mind, how true that is in reality I don't know. I try not to snob it up. I do try to diversify and let a lot in.

You have to remember when I write a lot of the stuff I do around this board I am sitting in a cubicle and wondering what the heck I'm doing to my mind. Which ironicly makes me part of the very problem I am ranting about. I think that is why the words I choose exemplify a disdain for a person or type of person. I don't mean it to be a personal attack. I was kind of acting like the hockey coach who chooses to scream at the kids to evoke some sort of change in the momentum of the season, game, period. Me being the subject as much as the next guy I guess. Not very effective if you always use these methods, but it'll get your attention.

I was a musician who played in some projects that celebrated the formulaic aspect of music. We'd play a tonne of pop, new country, and rock. I still appreciate the experience I had making this music, but I appreciate the fact that I have deprogrammed the part of this rearing that had my mind completely boxed in and closed to unique timbres, degrees of tightness, lyrics, and stage shows.

Because of this celebration of the less than genuine aspects of some top 40 hits I was numb to feeling what I now am in constant pursuit of attaining in listening and writing music. Humble reality in note selection, lyric, and intent. If not for the musicians, and listeners I met that were in touch with quality of song rather than slickness of recording and marketability I'd still be there...in ignorrance and completely happy.

The fact that I'd be happy without Bob Dylan, the Band, Soul Coughing, Neil Young, Van Morrison, The Grateful Dead, Phish, Nick Drake, is not alarming because these are good musicians it's alarming because I'd be one in a sea of people in the 'burbs from whence I came that were, as Dr Evil Mouse introduced, that lets themselves carry on unaffected by anything really different that might challenge their sense of identity. Ugh!

This is the place the strong language I've used in this thread, though lacking in tact I'll admit, is coming from.

Sorry for the slight highjack.

Edited November 28, 2005 by Guest

[mark tonin]

Deeps, thanks for taking the time and energy to share your thoughts and feelings with the rest of us. I think that it adds a lot to this community.

Peace, Mark

[MarcO]

I also think that a reversion to this "older" method of trading helps to encourage more of a community in a way that clicking a button and downloading does not.

Back in the bubble-mailer days' date=' I felt a greater connection with virtual strangers in various parts of North America who took time out of their day to burn discs for me. There's a dude named Brad in Wisconsin that I can thank for 70% of my Phish collection.

Mostly, it seems like people are pissed that they didn't burn as many shows off of the archive when they had access - just downloaded, listened for a while, and then erased, thinking that those shows would always be there whenever they wanted to hear them. There have been rumblings of this move for years; don't blame GDP for your own lack of foresight. I bet a few spindles of blank cds seems like a cheap investment now.

I agree with Esau that although I'm disappointed, I'm certainly not upset.

[/quote']

well put. before the archive, i did b&p's with people all over the continent, and bought very expensive and rare US stamps to use on a return mailer. when the show arrived in my mailbox, it went right on to the stereo, while i ran to the computer and dropped a thank-you to the head that sent it along...flash forward to the last show i dl'ed from the archive which i just finally got round to listening to

when bittorrent picked up speed, it seemed like the ideal way of sharing gd. everyone chipped in bandwidth in order to spread the music, and i was proud to leave my computer on for torrenting for days after i had the show. when the archive collection really got rolling, it was icing on the cake...

i went browsing rec.music.gdead today to see what the folks there were saying, and it's more of the same. the dead stash at archive.org was something that everyone just figured would always be there, and there is a lot of bitterness over the change. lots of jerry quotes saying that "once we've played it, we're done with it." there was also lots of discussion about the dire financial state that GDP is in...apparently they laid off ram rod and a buch more folks this week, and they are looking to set up a long term cash cow.

i suppose that it's their music to begin with, but it really smacks of retirement money. and as far as that goes, now that the last few shows i've seen and don't own are now streaming only, i will probably buy them when they finally come back as products of gdp.

if jerry hadn't been cremated he would probably be spinning in his grave.

I agree timouse. Their stance on taping and trading was a philosophy - a profound one - and that shouldn't change becuase the media has transformed. I don't think it is a sense of "entitlement" at all. Deadheads have always been tech saavy, largely because it was their deep respect for the music that led them to find the best caretaking methods available to them. I don't know about the rest of you but I hold (or, held) the Dead to a different standard than other bands and can only see this as an opportunistic cashgrab from a band that did not bring in any touring revenue in 2005.

I don't believe the official organization is the best caretaker of this music. I don't believe that people like Bob Weir and Mickey Hart can be trusted to keep the best interests of Deadheads protected. And while I wish Ram Rod nothing but happiness, it seems like a stretch for a man to expect to still be on the eternal payroll of a band that has been defunct - or at the very least, dysfunctional - for years. Wasn't part of what made the GD organizational structure unique was that they provided pension schemes for their employees?

Although they warned this would happen, I find this move to be crass and distasteful.

[MarcO]

and John Barlow (Dead lyricist and father to three hot girls) weighs in:

You have no idea how sad I am about this. I fought it hammer and tong, but the drummers had inoperable bricks in their head about it.

What's worse is that they now want to remove all Dead music from the Web. They might as easily put a teaspoon of food coloring in a swimming pool and then tell the pool owner to get it back to them.

It's like finding out that your brother is a child molester. And then, worse, having everyone then assume that you're a child molester too. I've been called a hypocrite in three languages already.

How magnificently counter-productive of them. It's as if the goose who laid the golden egg had decided to commit suicide so that he could get more golden eggs.

This is just the beginning of the backlash, I promise you.

This is worse than the RIAA suing their customers.

[Davey Boy 2.0]

Wow, thank you Barlow for having the bollocks to be so honest....

they now want to remove all Dead music from the Web

incredible!

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Thanks for that, MarcO - you can always depend on Barlow for a savvy take on it all. I think the food colouring analogy is wonderful.

Something happened when they took the word "grateful" out of the name....

[Del]

I fought it hammer and tong, but the drummers had inoperable bricks in their head about it.

Any chance we can leave Bobby out of the mudslinging now? It looks like it's Mickey and Bill that are being the assholes...

[MoMack]

Its weird that its Mickey given his ties to whatever that archival museum of music or whatever is etc.

At least now I can go see Phil without having to bring my "Dead Killer" sign (a la the Raptors fans last week...)

[secondtube]

i agree with Del. (i dont say that often)

keep bobby outta it.

[Booche]

Phil has chimed in.

Last Update: November 30, 2005

An Announcement from Phil Lesh:

It was brought to my attention that all of the Grateful Dead shows were taken down from Archive.org right before Thanksgiving. I was not part of this decision making process and was not notified that the shows were to be pulled. I do feel that the music is the Grateful Dead's legacy and I hope that one way or another all of it is available for those who want it . I have enjoyed using Archive.org and found it invaluable during the writing of my book. I found myself being pulled back in time listening to old Grateful Dead shows while giggling with glee or feeling that ache in my heart listening to Jerry's poetic guitar and sweet voice.

We are musicians not businessmen and have made good and bad decisions on our journey. We do love and care about our community as you helped us make the music. We could not have made this kind of music without you as you allowed us to play "without a net". Your love, trust and patience made it possible for us to try again the next show when we couldn't get that magic carpet off the ground. Your concerns have been heard and I am sure are being respectfully addressed.

- Phil